Poll

league-options

Scap old SB-league.
6 (14.6%)
Invent new SB-league.
4 (9.8%)
Fuse F1 and F2.
3 (7.3%)
Invent efficienty-league.
5 (12.2%)
Veggie-league.
3 (7.3%)
Blind-bots league.
5 (12.2%)
new F3. (if F1 and F2 fuse, F2)
6 (14.6%)
Zerobot-league.
3 (7.3%)
Dog fighting-league.
4 (9.8%)
evo league(later added)
2 (4.9%)
Anyone who comes with a clever idea, click here.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Overall league thoughts  (Read 38751 times)

Offline abyaly

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« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2008, 08:41:24 PM »
Keep in mind that veggie control / food shutout is a problematic exploit. Quickdraw and Saber demonstrate that this is a monstrously effective tactic. It can be fought against with a large repop threshold and large veggie cap.
Lancre operated on the feudal system, which was to say, everyone feuded all
the time and handed on the fight to their descendants.
        -- (Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum)

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2008, 08:54:34 AM »
Well I kind of imagined the field starting with plenty of veggies and letting them gain a descent amount of energy in order to reproduce, but not allowing any reprop. The main reason I think the field should be filled with veggies at startup is to minimize the effect of chance, if there's 10 veggies in a size 12 field then if someone starts next to a veggy he'll have a great advantage...
Not saying I'm fixed on the idea or anything, but I thought it sounded interesting. This would mean you either need to be strong enough to live off your oponent or you need to hamster food instead of just killing the alge you find. It would definately encourage antbot strategies, and with no viruses or raping you wouldn't be able to just take over the alge like in F1. So if you would have to make your way into enemy teritoy and kill their veggies to weaken them, like bombing fuel siloes during wartime.
But then again maybe this strategy would be the only way forward which could leave out other interesting MB's... but it seems to me that if movement is expensive and food isn't abundant and the field size is large, then hamstring food will always give a great advantage versus oganisms who just kill the alge.
Gotta admit I haven't thought it all the way through, just venting thoughts...

Not sure if shell costs are setled, but as I understand it -1 shots destroy more shell than -6 shots, but -1 shots also trigger poison if there's more poison than shell.
Now I don't know how much shell is destroyed by a -1 compared to a -6 shots. But for the sake of argument lets assume that a -1 shot destroys twice as much shell as a -6 shot, and lets asume that a regular unboosted -6 shot from a bot of size 1000 destroys 10 shell at the cost of 2 nrg. (I'm sure all these numbers are completely wrong, but this is just an example).

Now if the -6 shot destroys 10 shell the -1 shot would destroy 20... then I would set the cost of 15 shell to somewhere around 2 nrg. So the costs of 1 shell would be around 2/15.
This way if you're shooting -1 shots at an oponent that replenishes shell he will spend more energy on making shell than the oponent spends on destroying it. But if the oponent is using -6 shots he will spend more energy on removing the shell than the target spends on making it, however he won't risk getting affected by poison.
Now the problem is balancing poison with all of this... I would probably set it somewhere between the cost of shell and half the cost of shell. So you can use poison to force people to use -6 shots, but it will also cost you more. If the oponent chooses to use -6 shots because of the poison, then you won't need to replenish it and your shell will be worth the energy....

Not sure if this is the way to go, but it's what I had in mind...
And rememeber all the numbers used are make belief, it's only an example.
Also this isn't the specific way to balance it, but a sugestion for the reasoning behind the selected costs...

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2008, 05:11:14 PM »
I always thought -1 only triggers poison and -6 only triggers shell. I think a balance between shell:poison would be a better way to go though.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline ikke

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« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2008, 07:18:19 AM »
Quote from: abyaly
Keep in mind that veggie control / food shutout is a problematic exploit. Quickdraw and Saber demonstrate that this is a monstrously effective tactic. It can be fought against with a large repop threshold and large veggie cap.
Food shutout is only an effective strategy against bots too stupid to keep their veggies alive. The locust strategy should be discouraged by other means: If the offspring dies before it reaches new food then how effective is the strategy? I would go in the other direction: no repop. If you don't grow veggies you won't get them.

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2008, 11:20:36 AM »
Quote from: bacillus
I always thought -1 only triggers poison and -6 only triggers shell. I think a balance between shell:poison would be a better way to go though.

Well if theres doubt as to how the shots work then my opinion would be that it's impossible to balance this right without knowing how it works, then it's just a load of unqualified guesses
But you can't just balance shell and poison without considering how the shots that trigger them work and how much a shot triggers... otherwise it's not balanced, it just some random value...

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2008, 09:48:32 PM »
OK, who wants no repop (allowing farming), and who wants the veggy population to be artificially controlled with repops enabled?

I'm for no repop.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #111 on: November 26, 2008, 12:38:54 AM »
Me too.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #112 on: November 26, 2008, 03:13:41 PM »
Um...
that's 2-0

Thanks to everyone who voted!

OK, seriously, here's where everyone leans:

jknilinux, bacillus, ikke, moonfisher - No repop

abyaly, peter, ?Numsgil? - artificial control

I put Numsgil with abyaly and peter to show that no repop still wins even if Nums agrees with you two.

If we got shvarz, d-evo, peterb etc... to voice their opinions, though, this might be more representative.

moonfisher-
Hmmm. I agree. Let's start out with 100 veggies.

Or, wait a sec- can't we define the bot's starting positions?
How about the bots start on the top-left and bottom-left corners, and the veggies all on the right side?

And what about extra starting energy, in case they're meant to be a MB/ant and need to repro? Besides, they need to go for a while before they find food- we don't want to have a two-bot endurance walk; we want to see them compete after they find food. Just an idea.

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #113 on: November 26, 2008, 04:04:10 PM »
Im for no repop

Will make it more simple and the resources will be more valuable

P.S. maby a rule for the NNbot leage would be to only alow the bot to start of with random weights and values in the neurons.
I think this will encourage bots to 'learn'
1:      2 is true
2:      1 is false

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #114 on: November 26, 2008, 05:25:06 PM »
This idea was already sort of ruled out with the dogfighting league, but what about a league where reproduction is turned off, there are no veggies and each bot (initial of 1 per species) starts out with 30000 nrg?

The problem is that when the veggies run out, it sort of comes down to this.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2008, 02:20:45 PM »
d-evo-

The bots in the learningbot league would start with no information whatsoever, and learn and adjust their weights through trial and error. They can have no pre-programmed behaviors, except for curiosity. So, it's more like all their weights would be set to 0.

bacillus-

I had a similar idea for a two-organism league. See my first few posts before we started working on the IBBL.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 01:53:04 PM by jknilinux »

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2008, 01:59:31 PM »
Rules 0.8 (closer...):

- No memory shots.
- No venom.
- No viruses.
- 10x Poison costs*
- 10x shell costs*
- Size 12 field.
- Non-toroidal
- Alga minimalis, veggy repop threshold @ 0, veggy population cap @ 50, low energy cap (???), fed 8 nrg per turn, fed per kilobody, day/night cycles enabled. (We'll want the veggy population to remain around 20-25 constantly.)+
- Thick fluid resistance.
- F1 costs, no/low code execution costs (0.5x?), and low (0.1x?) age costs.*
- Only negative tieloc values allowed.

* - These are random values, meant to be placeholders- as moonfisher pointed out, we should try to make an exact balance between the two. Numsgil should know exactly what occurs.

+ - Note that we should either start the bots both on one side and the veggies on the other, to ensure no bot ends up right next to a veggy, or that the field should start with a large amount of veggies, perhaps 100. This is because, when a bot is optimized for living off of a few veggies, if it starts right next to a veggy it will have, like moonfisher said, a huge advantage.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 01:59:55 PM by jknilinux »

Offline Commander Keen

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« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2008, 12:43:53 AM »
I haven't been keeping up with the news lately...
Any decisions on whats happening with the F2 league?

The Holidays are here, so I thought it might be a good time for an update, possibly even a complete rerun  

Offline jknilinux

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« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2008, 11:36:43 PM »
I think they're keeping it- there are too many bots in there that had too much of effort put into them to just delete them all, or lump them into F1 where they'll all die. That's the idea, I think.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2008, 11:35:24 AM »
I'll try getting 2.43.1l, then I'll add some more bots and rerun F1.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan