Poll

league-options

Scap old SB-league.
6 (14.6%)
Invent new SB-league.
4 (9.8%)
Fuse F1 and F2.
3 (7.3%)
Invent efficienty-league.
5 (12.2%)
Veggie-league.
3 (7.3%)
Blind-bots league.
5 (12.2%)
new F3. (if F1 and F2 fuse, F2)
6 (14.6%)
Zerobot-league.
3 (7.3%)
Dog fighting-league.
4 (9.8%)
evo league(later added)
2 (4.9%)
Anyone who comes with a clever idea, click here.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Overall league thoughts  (Read 10746 times)

Offline Peter

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Overall league thoughts
« on: October 12, 2008, 12:10:14 PM »
1. Scap SB-league, useless with sg-ination and the new inline condition everyone can make SG-bots not to speak about SB.

2. New 'official' SB league, made for bots witha certain bp length or bots not longer then one kb or something.

3. Fuse F1 and F2 and make F3 into F2.

4. Effiecienty-league. A league that is bigger in size then others but with the same amount of veggies.

5. Some kind of veggie-league. For example veggies in pond mode and some gravity that try to survive.

6. Blind-bots league. Only for bots that can't see.

7. F3, with no ties virus, venom, sexrepro or other mean stuff I can't think off.F3-thoughts link

8. Random thought a zerobot league. I had some zerobots that almost could survive in F1-league conditions. Same settings as in F1 but then for zerobots.

9. Dog-fighting league, reproduction is turned off. Further F1-conditions.

10. Evolution league, original idea moonfisher.

11. Anyone who comes with a clever idea, can post here.

The votes counter is to register how much votes there are.
Anyone who didn't vote for something is against it. In this setting.

If you think something could turn into a big discussion, you can post another topic. I wouldn't mind if the topic is all alog about blind-bots or something. But different discussions in one topic can be disturbing. Exept if you want to state something about them all.

Alright, any global thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 03:45:56 AM by Peter »
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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 09:32:51 PM »
How about an evo league where all mutations are turned on... maybe even with high mutation rates... and maybe in a bigger field or something...
Would take a lot longer to run and results would be less predictable, but might be fun.
Could spawn some interesting ways to create strong evo bases.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 10:28:05 PM »
I'll set up a F3 league sometime today or tomorrow.

As for the SB league, I think the SS (single store) league fills that purpose now.  So if everyone's behind the idea I'll just remove the SB league altogether.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 12:25:10 AM »
I'm not sure about the veggie league, what's the point?
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Peter

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 02:17:20 PM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
How about an evo league where all mutations are turned on... maybe even with high mutation rates... and maybe in a bigger field or something...
Would take a lot longer to run and results would be less predictable, but might be fun.
Could spawn some interesting ways to create strong evo bases.
If you could explain this further. I can't really see a real league coming from this. I sounds interesting but a league, sounds kind of hard.

Quote from: Numsgil
I'll set up a F3 league sometime today or tomorrow.

As for the SB league, I think the SS (single store) league fills that purpose now.  So if everyone's behind the idea I'll just remove the SB league altogether.
Nice to hear that. Out of the poll you can read that most are in favor for this proposal. I guesed you already saw this.
I'm not completely sure if the SS-league is a full replacement for the SB-league.
But a possible new SB-league would have completely different settings then the old SB-league, so wiping would be okay anyway.
On the other side I really think a SB-league with a small bp-size could have some interesting bots.

Quote from: bacillus
I'm not sure about the veggie league, what's the point?
Well, bots that compete with eachother to get the most sunlight, atleast that was the idea. I would like to have defensive veggies that are slow and have to get up somehow. Possible with high moving costs, high friction and a gravity.

Anyway, if I can conclude the poll results. I draw the follow quick conclusions.
This is wanted.(all 6)
Scap old SB-league.
A new F3.

What shall we do all these beneath this. Maybe something for future leagues. I suggest anyone who makes a bot specifially for EE, BB or DF-league, or maybe even ZB. Puts a tag at the bot. If there are enoungh there can be a league.

This is doubted(all 4)
New SB-league
Energy efficienty league.
Blind bots league.
Dog-fighting league.

Not many in favor.
Fuse F1 and F2. (3)
Veggie-league (2)
Zerobot league (2)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:20:10 PM by Peter »
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Offline bacillus

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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 11:54:13 PM »
Quote from: Peter
Quote from: bacillus
I'm not sure about the veggie league, what's the point?
Well, bots that compete with eachother to get the most sunlight, atleast that was the idea. I would like to have defensive veggies that are slow and have to get up somehow. Possible with high moving costs, high friction and a gravity.
What about veggie respawn, can it be disabled?

EDIT=> 500th post, yay                  
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 12:21:58 AM by bacillus »
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Peter

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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 03:41:11 AM »
Quote from: bacillus
What about veggie respawn, can it be disabled?
Yes, it can pretty easily anyway. Just put veggie respawn at 0.

Quote
EDIT=> 500th post, yay                  
You're posting like a madman. At this rate you will have more posts then me within this year.
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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 06:00:57 PM »
I know it may just get odd, but I was thinking of running league fights in a larger field with 32X mutations or possibly more...
For instance I tried running a broken version of ebola against multiply, it was loosing 5-0. Then I tried just running the fight as usual but with 32X mutations, and the score was about 50/50.
In a larger field the broken ebola won every fight.
So a very specific hand crafted bot will break down more than it evolves, while a broken copy paste monster has a better chance of improving itself...
So you may also see some hand crafted bots perform a lot better than they used to if they weren't realy living up to their true potential. Wich is why I think it would also be interesting to try and save the "best bot" from each side at the end of the fight. Could be interesting to see what suddenly made a weaker bot a lot stronger.
But it would probably require more than just 32X mutations to make it interesting enough... or a very large field to give each bot room to evolve...
Point was to spawn some better evo bases that are more likely to evolve and learn than to break down.

Also I like the idea of a league with a bp cap to replace the old SB league, was thinking the same thing.
I also think leagues in a larger field with less veggies and the blind bot league sounds very interesting. But who will run all those leagues ?
And I also think the veggie league could be interesting... but you would probably have to make an individual maxpop cap for each specie. But in a way IM is already a veggie league

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 12:03:32 AM »
Quote from: Peter
You're posting like a madman. At this rate you will have more posts then me within this year.
Not the only forum I've ended up spamming  .
Back on topic, I think that viruses should have a higher mutation rate than bots, otherwise a bot can just replicate itself then shoot the required gene(s) in a virus.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Peter

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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 05:32:34 AM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
I know it may just get odd, but I was thinking of running league fights in a larger field with 32X mutations or possibly more...
For instance I tried running a broken version of ebola against multiply, it was loosing 5-0. Then I tried just running the fight as usual but with 32X mutations, and the score was about 50/50.
In a larger field the broken ebola won every fight.
So a very specific hand crafted bot will break down more than it evolves, while a broken copy paste monster has a better chance of improving itself...
Did you use multiply3 or multiply4. Multiply4 has to nasty habit to stop reproducing if the gene-stucture changes, a simple defence against virus. Mutations together with a virus-bot hit it at a weak spot.
Multiply3 is a more mutation-resistant specie, it can get a eye more or less and still be seen a conspec. It doesn't really care about more or less genes too I think.

Quote
So you may also see some hand crafted bots perform a lot better than they used to if they weren't realy living up to their true potential. Wich is why I think it would also be interesting to try and save the "best bot" from each side at the end of the fight. Could be interesting to see what suddenly made a weaker bot a lot stronger.
But it would probably require more than just 32X mutations to make it interesting enough... or a very large field to give each bot room to evolve...
Point was to spawn some better evo bases that are more likely to evolve and learn than to break down.
I don't really see evolution coming with those high mutations. I can only see that the bot most resistant to mutations will win a fight like that. And in any way that the final best bot will have been crually devoluted but still less then the rest, or it became cancerous and for that he just became best that way, but it's not.

Quote
Also I like the idea of a league with a bp cap to replace the old SB league, was thinking the same thing.
I also think leagues in a larger field with less veggies and the blind bot league sounds very interesting. But who will run all those leagues ?
And I also think the veggie league could be interesting... but you would probably have to make an individual maxpop cap for each specie. But in a way IM is already a veggie league
Well if I would make an exellent blindbot. I post a league-topic somewhere claiming I'm the best. And some will respont to it and made a bot for it. I doubt most of the leagues will get really big. Everyone who likes some of these league may run them itself. I'm just coming up with ideas.
And I wouldn't know if the bots really need a individual maxpop. Just a overall sky-high max-pop will do it.

Quote from: bacillus
Quote from: Peter
You're posting like a madman. At this rate you will have more posts then me within this year.
Not the only forum I've ended up spamming  .
Back on topic, I think that viruses should have a higher mutation rate than bots, otherwise a bot can just replicate itself then shoot the required gene(s) in a virus.
I will try to stay before you as long as I can.
Is that on this topic. That would decrease the overall power of virus. Well do we want this to block virus-power
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 01:53:55 PM »
Slime will block viruses, it's probably just a little underpowered against it.  I think if you keep slime at 50 all the time, you can prevent the majority of virus infections, though that was a long time ago.

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 07:08:20 PM »
I don't realy think slime is underpowered, you just have to make a choice between using slime or making some good virus defences and hoping for the best. In the end if you can cut a resource you'll have more nrg, so it will always be an imporvement if you no longer need slime in your bot. And some bots do make enough slime to keep oponents out, I think Conquistador just has enough slime to avoid getting infected and I remember I had problems getting past it with Ebola because it relied on the virus to kill the oponents but the virus never managed to infect it, even though the virus in ebola fills up the field with well powered virus shots rather fast...

But viruses aren't realy an issue ATM... I can't think of a reason to use a virus when I can rape instead. With raping there's no charge time, no added costs, I can aim and infect my target, takes loads of poison if people want to stop the memmory shots, I can also transfer as many genes as I like of any size. Granted you need to get closer to infect someone, but once you infected an oponent you can just relax and let the infected oponent do the rest of the work, you're not inserting a small infection, you're taking over and inserting a large complex behavior.

And I used Mulitply4, and I'm aware it's weak against mutations but it was mostly to illustrate the point that some bots are much stronger against mutations and should alteast get some credit for that.
Also the broken ebola wasn't firing it's virus, but with mmutations the virus became active about 20% of the time, so there was definately improvements through the fight.
I realize you won't see any ground breaking evolution this way, but you will see good examples of single mutations having a very benefitial effect on it's host.
But mainly the point would be to weed out bots with defences that only work with no mutations and conspecs that break down too fast and other such stuff...
The higher the mutation rates the more emphasis would be on mutation resistant bots and less on evolution, and that may be the best aproach since evolution isn't very likely in bots unless they're broken or buggy copy paste monsters and such... (I'm pretty sure noone wants to run very very long fights in a huge field, and evolutions usualy takes some time)

But evolution CAN happen, even with very strong handcrafted bots in environments with heavy mutations. Often a small tweek can make a huge difference, using more shell, or less poison, or having more or less speed, and stuff like that. Problem is ofcourse that high mutations will tend to break down everything, even the bots that where evolving... and lower mutations may not realy take effect before the fight is over. So I wouldn't hope for too much evolution... rather focus on a league for bots that are hard to break down. Not even sure it's a great idea or anything, but just seemed like the stronger handcrafted bots are always weak against mutations. People are always asking for mutation resistant conspecs and such, but I have yet to see a hand crafted conspec that can compare to the ways evolved bots handle it. (I do have an idea on how to create a much stronger conspec that should prevent the evolution of canibots, largely inspired by the behavior of the bots in a sim I was running)

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 11:55:30 PM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
Wich is why I think it would also be interesting to try and save the "best bot" from each side at the end of the fight. Could be interesting to see what suddenly made a weaker bot a lot stronger.
I think that in order to do this, first the 'best bot' function has to be improved.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 05:17:16 AM »
Yeah I know best bot is currently the worst bot because it counts offspring even if they're dead or dieing or got eaten by the parrent... generaly determining best bot is pretty hard, think there was a discussion on this but we never came to a conclusion...

Offline Peter

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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 05:46:20 AM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
Yeah I know best bot is currently the worst bot because it counts offspring even if they're dead or dieing or got eaten by the parrent... generaly determining best bot is pretty hard, think there was a discussion on this but we never came to a conclusion...
I though it was only counting offspring that is alive?

About the mutation-league. I'm not even sure if current league allow any mutions. But I would like to see F1 and F2 bots being trown in some kind of mutation-resistance league. I wonder if there will come suprising results.
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