Author Topic: New F1 bot standings  (Read 8309 times)

Offline bacillus

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New F1 bot standings
« on: September 04, 2008, 08:39:42 PM »
F1 BOT STANDINGS
Last updated 11/10/08

1 - Saber
2 - Fruit_Fliesv0.21
3 - Etch Mk II(F1)(abyaly)-15.03.2008
4 - Occura Amplificis(F1)(bacillus)-25.03.08
5 - TieFighters
6 - Pacifist (5G) (Moonfisher) 19-02-08
7 - Spinnerv1.52
8 - Locust(F1)(Moonfisher)
9 - Ebola (F1Vir) (Moonfisher)
10- Multiply4(F1)(F2)(Peter)19-12-07
11- Excalibur 1.12 (F2)(Light)-06.03.07
12- Callidus(F1)(Shen)-05.04.05
13- Blue on blue (F2)(Jez)-05.08.06
14- Bubbles (F2)(Jez)-21.08.06
15- Reaper (F1)(Googlyeyesultra)-17.07.07
16- Detonator v1.2(F1)(bacillus)-24.04.08
17- Martian Tank 3 (F2)(Martian)-06.07.2007
18- Singula Haloculus v2.1(F1)(bacillus)21.04.08
19- The One (1G)(Shen)-23.04.05
20- Republican Wasp (F1)(Commander Keen)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 08:17:40 PM by bacillus »
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 02:57:29 PM »
Ok, well. Etch is the best that is for sure. Doesn´t matter what method you use.

That Excalibur would be beaten should be pretty certain too. I beat it with multiply, and after I enthousiatic anounced it beaten the league(I did not really expect this) everyone started testing their bot on mine.  

Overall I gues that these league standings are pretty accurate. The whole top uses as normal typical dirty tricks only, maybe I should use that kind of tricks.

Are there any objections for using the bacillus kind of F1-league and replacing the old version with it. Or let just introduce the FB-1 league (Fbacillus-1 league). I reread the original topic just and it tends to have some kind of objections with some.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 10:21:06 PM »
I have no objection with him posting results   It's too unwieldy for new users, though, to be the "official" run.  Part of the idea of the league is that you automate it to see how a version of your bot does compared to another version.  You need a ladder for that to make sense.

But since F1 is presently on hiatus, bac's method fills something of a vacuum, so I guess I shouldn't complain

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2008, 12:34:04 AM »
Well, the all-v-all method was initially used to create a fairly represented ladder on which challenges were to be based on, but since I lost progress I decided to continue with the 25-odd I had already done.
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 04:21:43 AM »
Note when I say ladder I don't mean just a linear ranking.  I mean the idea that in order to advance you have to beat everyone below you at the time you place.  Once you get high in the ladder you just have to be able to beat the guy one below you to keep your rank.  Or beat the guy one above you to advance.  It makes for a more intimate league.  And managable with lots of bots in it, in a way that a n^2 FFA just can't be.

Offline ikke

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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 04:44:03 AM »
Perhaps develop ranking like in chess, where eveybody has a point average. I don't know the details, but if a low point beats high point he gains a lot (and the high looses a lot) if the low point looses he looses a little (he was expected to do so). In such a system you don't have to play everyone, you just organise appropriate contests. It allows for incremental updating if a new player appears.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 12:41:49 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
I have no objection with him posting results   It's too unwieldy for new users, though, to be the "official" run.  Part of the idea of the league is that you automate it to see how a version of your bot does compared to another version.  You need a ladder for that to make sense.

But since F1 is presently on hiatus, bac's method fills something of a vacuum, so I guess I shouldn't complain
To set the record straight, I don't believe bac or anyone else wants to run this league the same way in the future.
You can agree that is the top of the league there where some weaker bots, that where defended by Excalibur. This league table puts a more serious kind of leaguetable then one where guardian was even in the league.

I would (as far that wasn't clear already) like to propose this as the new league table, and let all new league-challangers be run at the old way.

Quote from: ikke
Perhaps develop ranking like in chess, where eveybody has a point average. I don't know the details, but if a low point beats high point he gains a lot (and the high looses a lot) if the low point looses he looses a little (he was expected to do so). In such a system you don't have to play everyone, you just organise appropriate contests. It allows for incremental updating if a new player appears.
No, that is complicated enough. If you look into it a rating system as with chess or draughts could be complicated to setup in DB, I wouldn't know where to start, to me this sounds as an 'líttle' absurb proposal.
To give an example for the complexity, there where multiple chess/draughts worldtitelskeepers that kept first in the ranglist by not playing (almost)any game for serveral years. One of the best proposals would be the only ever chess-world title holder that came from the USA. He got the worldtitle never payed again, and it took years after that he won it to lose it. Another one would be the current tittle holder of draughts. The dutchman Ton Sybrands didn't really played that many draughts matches the last several years. If believe he has quit now, but it will take time before official ranglists get it.  

Just some random useless knowledge I know from thinking sports.
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Offline bacillus

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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 02:08:04 AM »
I don't see how the Swiss avg. point system will work with this, but you're right, It was very elaborate making the starter table, and no method's perfect eg. a bot may beat Etch but not anything else.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 04:32:56 AM »
Excalibur was under ranked in later versions (I think a bug was introduced that lowered its effectiveness, then it was fixed later).  Ideally when a new version is released the current league table is rerun, in league order.  So Excalibur would have been the #1 bot.  It's still possible to get stuck on a bot that you can't beat, but beat all the ones above it.  But I think that's fine, it should be an easy or even semi-hard thing to get #1 in the league.  It should be really, really hard.  That's the whole point.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 11:57:00 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Excalibur was under ranked in later versions (I think a bug was introduced that lowered its effectiveness, then it was fixed later).  Ideally when a new version is released the current league table is rerun, in league order.  So Excalibur would have been the #1 bot.
I'd go with the rerunning the league order. I didn't thought about that. That elliminates 'stupid old' bots like guardian and aura too.

About that excalibur could be first. I tend to miss a bot  Well a bot that I would possible see as first too.
Where is the first etch? Did you forget him, or did he just blew completely.

Quote
It's still possible to get stuck on a bot that you can't beat, but beat all the ones above it.  But I think that's fine, it should be an easy or even semi-hard thing to get #1 in the league.
Look up, look below. Do you have different oppinions.
Quote
It should be really, really hard.  That's the whole point.
Anyway, your point is made. I'm over to your side. He, wait you persuaded me fast.

Bac., how did you run all the bots from the starting gate into your league. You posted the results with all the other starting bots left a few hours after the first ranking without them. That is fast.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 01:30:15 PM »
I mean Excalibur would be #1 of the bots that are currently in the league.  Not counting any new bots made in the last 1-2 years or however long it's been since the league was run.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 02:02:15 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
I mean Excalibur would be #1 of the bots that are currently in the league.  Not counting any new bots made in the last 1-2 years or however long it's been since the league was run.
I wasn't eather, lookup the old league table(here) and etch is already placed before excalibur.

You where not really specific speaking of F1 so if you meant F2, you are completely right. I give you that.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 03:11:20 PM »
Hmm... I don't remember.  I reran one of the leagues a couple weeks back just to make sure it worked and didn't crash.  After 24 hours running on my laptop (Guardian is a pain to run, and it dropped WAY down in the rankings, so there were a lot of battles) Excalibur was #1 and my computer had crashed.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 01:20:09 AM »
Reading the original thread might be time-consuming, but will stop a whole lot of discussions. I said that I was only going to run the latest versions of bots, or at least only the best version (for bots which I've already run.)
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 12:57:36 PM »
Quote from: bacillus
Reading the original thread might be time-consuming, but will stop a whole lot of discussions. I said that I was only going to run the latest versions of bots, or at least only the best version (for bots which I've already run.)
Oh, alright.

and
Bac., how did you run all the bots from the starting gate into your league. You posted the results with all the other starting bots left a few hours after the first ranking without them. That is fast.
Oh my god, who the hell cares.