Author Topic: Pfft! Just tell me what to do.  (Read 4625 times)

Offline asterixx

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Pfft! Just tell me what to do.
« on: June 30, 2008, 10:50:22 AM »
I want to run an internet sim without the population climbing to 3-3.5 thousand, because it slows to .2 cycles/sec. Does anyone want me to just run a copy of their faster sim? I would be more than okay with that.
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you.  Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure."

Offline ikke

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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 01:00:50 PM »
Quote from: asterixx
I want to run an internet sim without the population climbing to 3-3.5 thousand, because it slows to .2 cycles/sec. Does anyone want me to just run a copy of their faster sim? I would be more than okay with that.
I have a sim posted in the thread my first evo sim you can use

Offline EricL

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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 01:59:09 PM »
Controlling populations in internet mode works the same as with any other sim.  Use nrg thresholds, use costs, use auto-costs, limit veggies, limit sunshine, do what ever you would normally do to control populations.
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Offline asterixx

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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 10:39:56 PM »
Quote from: EricL
Controlling populations in internet mode works the same as with any other sim.  Use nrg thresholds, use costs, use auto-costs, limit veggies, limit sunshine, do what ever you would normally do to control populations.

I don't know what settings to use for many of the bots in internet mode, so either I end up killing everything, or the costs do nothing. Maybe I should have asked for some typical IM settings.
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you.  Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure."

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 11:13:05 PM »
I use small sim size and veggy repop cooldown time to limit growth in IM.  You don't have to worry so much about killing everything off with costs too high since you'll always get new bots coming in.

Offline EricL

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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 01:38:13 AM »
Try an age cost of 1 and nothing else.  Then set your target population and enable auto costs.
Many beers....

Offline Skylimit

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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 02:44:59 PM »
it takes some time to be able to succesfully tune the environment

currently I'm experimenting with a large area, multiple vegs which can grow upto 350 since it is a large area

is there any way to get all selected vegs grow to the same number?  That would be nice since it would allow the biodiversity I'm after

It also took me quite some time till I found the veggy flag, which is kind of essential
but that's probably me  

Offline asterixx

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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 03:52:39 PM »
Thank you for the suggestions, we'll see how it goes, and I'll get back to you.
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you.  Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure."

Offline Jarbon

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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 08:32:33 PM »
I find a good technique to find the optimal costs for the bot in an environment is to start with low costs then increase the costs over time until the population stabilizes to a level that you are comfortable with. The population should drop somewhat and stabilize below its old peak. If the past cost increase didn't lower it enough increase it again. The biggest problem with this technique is that you will have to be on the ball to lower the costs to prevent the population from dying out if you set the cost too high. Therefore it may be a good idea to set a population (somewhat lower than your goal) that the costs will drop to zero if it reaches and reinstate the population once it goes up. If the population hovers at this bottom range then you should decrease costs.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 10:55:21 PM »
Quote from: Skylimit
It also took me quite some time till I found the veggy flag, which is kind of essential
but that's probably me  


 Not at all.  A good program strives to be "idiot proof".  Games like Spore and Half Life and Portal spend a lot of time tweaking how the UI works to make them as intuitive and easy for beginners as possible.  Darwinbots is not idiot proof.  It's not even really user friendly.  Part of the problem with Darwinbots is that theres just a lot of options to play with.  It's daunting for new users.  The veggy tag is a good example: it's gotten crowded with added features.

Someday I'm hoping I'll magically get a revelation on how to do UI better (not just for Darwinbots, but for every project I work on).  Until then it's good for users to point out when they had a hard time with something.  It helps the developers figure out where something isn't working, even if it doesn't immediately suggest a fix.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 10:55:58 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Skylimit

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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 04:46:20 AM »
Well, what I mean, I am totally obsessed by the idea
and eventually I will find a way to make it work like I want it to work, as there is plenty of features to tweak the environment

But maybe there should be some "out of the box" examples, so moderately interested users don't have to spend a week to find out how everything works

Typically what happens is, with the defaults as they are,
you get a small playground, with veggy's that don't carry veggy flag   ,
where in about 2-3 minutes one species takes control over your screen

What typically happens when you start playing around a bit, is that the population grows out of control,
completely freezing your computer

Neither is any good of course, and this can drive away some of the moderately interested users

Also a bit disappointing is, the fact that so little users share their bots over the internet
If your playground is sufficiently large, and your number of bots less than 1000,
all sorts of interesting stuff will happen if every 3 minutes some alien lands in your territory
That is actually the reason I got here in the first plays
Evolve is a very good program, but it misses this feature

Since I also mention Evolve, I must say, in evolve you can start with some random statements, ...,
and if the species is able to survive, it starts evolving, into a superior species
I have evolved some very powerful guys, that could actually compete with killer programs like contest & sqr2

I'm not sure I see this happening here, ..., though you may eventually see some weird species eating all your fabricated bots
(like BA_Chase, Piranha, Evy8, Miskywhisker)

I'm not sure who is currently experimenting with evolved bots, but it is possible to some degree
Seasnake 1.31 for instance ate all my Seasnake 1.3, ..., but the evolved bot Evy4 then completely whiped them out

But there is a lot depending on the environment as well, size/veggy's, total veggy's etc ...

Offline EricL

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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 07:40:25 PM »
Quote from: Skylimit
I'm not sure who is currently experimenting with evolved bots, but it is possible to some degree
Seasnake 1.31 for instance ate all my Seasnake 1.3, ..., but the evolved bot Evy4 then completely whiped them out


Seasnake 1.31 was just Seasnake 1.3 with mutations turned off.  I introduced Seasnake 1.3 with mutations enbaled a few weeks ago and 1800 mutations or so later, it still owns IM and is greatly changed.  It no longer forms multibot snakes for example and the average body is tiny.  It can beat the unmuating version (1.31) hands down though.

Seasnake 1.3 is a great starting point for evolution since it has a long genome with lots of different functionality, but I'm still surprised the evolved version does so well.  One would think that in the absense of a competitor, some of the defenses against tie attacks for example, would atrophy.  It must be competing against itself, providing it's own selection pressure to maintain the complex traits.  

I just introduced Shinking Violet 2.  Let's see how it deals with a veggy that fights and runs away.
Many beers....

Offline Skylimit

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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2008, 05:24:26 AM »
Have you tried to put Evy7 and Seasnake 1.3 in a large space with little food?
The seasnakes that get teleported in, even if they survive and multiply, eventually get beaten by Evy
But on the other hand, I never managed to decrease the seasnake population running at your side

What are the parameters in your universe?

Offline Skylimit

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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 06:43:08 PM »
Seasnake must still be evolving ...
It took complete control on two of my computers, which it was not able to do last week