Author Topic: suggestions for evo sim tools  (Read 3732 times)

Offline ikke

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suggestions for evo sim tools
« on: July 16, 2008, 07:31:35 AM »
Following the different evo sims I have run over the past period I have some suggestions:
1) CostX per species. This allows for (artificial) biodiversity between species which would otherwise outcompete each other. Fitness becomes comparing costX
2) body size graph. In the sim I ran body size was the main evolutionary adaptation of my veggies. There is no graph to track this
3) histograms or distribution plots for the parameters graphed, especially for the different strains within a species. I have 40 distinct subspecies, but what are the numbers of individuals per strain? my average energy level is 20000 for animalis, but what is the distribution over the individuals?

Offline EricL

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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 12:12:26 PM »
My $0.02 on these:

I am opposed to #1.  Difficulties of "real" species identification and speciation over time aside, allowing different costs per specie is equivalent to allowing different laws of the universe per specie, which I am opposed to.  IMHO, costs, phycis, etc. should be eqivalent for all species at the same phycisal locale, thereby providing a level playing field for evolution to operate.  Note that I am *not* opposed to providing different physics, costs, etc for all species as a function of locale, via such mechanisims as the e-grid or via multiple connected sims ala internet mode.  This is equivalent to providing different environmental niches, to which evolution can adapt.  But IMHO, all organamisms within a locale should expereince the same costs regardless of species.

As an aside, I will also state that in my opinion, that fact that we must provide environmental costs at all, particularily as a mechanism for population control, is forced, artificial and mostly grounded in our limited computation resources.  Costs provide a means for phenotypes to compete through effeciency, and thus for selection to operate along this dimension, but IMHO, effeciency relative to costs alone (as opposed to effeciency relative to environmental conditions such as tracking prey or navigating around shapes) is not the most or even a very interesting battleground and in a world with vastly more computation resources, we could very easily do without it.   I would prefer to see competition for limited resources such as nrg, physical space, compition for prey, for specific habitat, effeciency in running, fighting, hiding, navigation, prey tracking and so on be the primary battlefronts and selection drivers.

One might argue that having no costs results in either unacceptable population explosions (unacceptable due to limited computation resources) or the necessity of limiting incoming nrg so severely that sim activity suffers and thus costs are something we can't do without today but I routinely run evo sims with no costs using shepard preditor bots as the sole means of population control.   This works very well and has many advantages over cost-restricted sims I won't go into here.

A sim with an increasing CostX over time may be evidence of selection for efficiency relative to costs, but I think that is pretty much all it means.  I would rather provide enviornments where complex organisms evolve with complex adaptations selected for complex beahviours necessary to compete against other complex organisms in a spiraling co-evolution that favors complexity over effeciency.  A body maintence cost for example, is dead last on the list of things I want influencing selection of body size.   I woudl much prefer preditor-prey interaction and so on be the primary selection drivers on this and every other morphological trait.

I have no objections to #2 and #3.  I will add them to the list.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 12:15:46 PM by EricL »
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Offline Skylimit

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suggestions for evo sim tools
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 03:08:40 PM »
I will post my suggestion here again (I already suggested this in another thread)
I like to create large environments with many different bots of which population is controlled by different veggies.
But if you choose multiple veggies, they are not evenly distributed, leaving mostly one veggie dominating, and thus also the species that likes them for lunch.  It would be nice to be able to choose multiple veggies that are either evenly distributed or if you can set a number for each veggie.

It would create some interesting possibilities.  For instance, some veggies stick together, like Fish, vegparasite, Shrinking Violet, and many others...    Other species sort of explode when they hit such a cluster, ..., like swarm, reaper, rabidus, ba_chase, etc....

By selecting multiple veggies, you can create different niches, seperated by a void
This way it is also possible to have many different bots active at the same time

It also creates new types of species ...  like for instance if in a large universe swarm (or a variant of swarm) hits a cluster of fish (or a variant of fish) it explodes and creates a big bang like universe with thousands of bots going further and further from the epicentre in all directions .... Then I have this weird bot Chaos_Proleatriophalis    that feeds on a certain quantity of swarm ... it only is effective when not to little and not too much of swarm is floating around, thus at a certain distance from the last explosion.  I have saved several variants of this mutated bot, and it is unable to survive in a startup scenario,..., but it does very well in my exploded-swarm-after-eating-fish scenario

Another thing I already mentioned is that the alien Shrinking Violet has nested in the center of the sim, where there was absolutely nothing.   By growing up to 750 bots in this giant universe, it left only 250 spots for the other veggies, thus almost completely stripping it from food.  Eventually, the swarm from the last explosion will probably reach the Chaos_Proleatriomphalis most likely within about 10 hours and save them from starvation, ..., but anyway, it made me think about how to create more interesting situation by evenly distributing the veggies

Offline EricL

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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 03:49:40 PM »
Quote from: Skylimit
But if you choose multiple veggies, they are not evenly distributed...
The simulator actually does evenly distribute veggies both across all native veggy species and geographically across the field when it comes to new veggie respawning via repopulation.  It all depends upon your settings.  If you have your sim configured such that veggie repopulation occurs below the max veggy level, then veggies capable of reproduction will reproduce once the population of all veggies falls below the max, potentially pre-empting repopulation indefinently.  If you are providing sufficient incoming sunlight and/or the veggies hunt or otherwise can aquire non-autotropic sources of nrg, then repopulation may never occur (the veggy population never falls below the repop level to allow it) and the most succuessful veggy will become the only veggies species in the sim, even if non-native.  Since reproduction occurs in phyiscal proximity (as it should) and not randomly across the field (as with repopulation) they will tend to clump when reproduction is the primary means of new veggies coming into the world.  

Try turning off the sun and/or setting the repop threshold at or above the max veggy level if you want repopulation to be the sole means of new veggies coming into existance.  This will put non-native veggies such as Shirnking Violet at a disadvantage since they cannot reproduce and will not be repopulated since they are not native to that sim.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 03:59:38 PM by EricL »
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Offline Skylimit

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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 05:39:34 PM »
Quote from: EricL
Try turning off the sun and/or setting the repop threshold at or above the max veggy level if you want repopulation to be the sole means of new veggies coming into existance.  This will put non-native veggies such as Shirnking Violet at a disadvantage since they cannot reproduce and will not be repopulated since they are not native to that sim.

I have set repopulation threshold very low
(probably because I discovered there was a veggy flag pretty late   )
So that will probably be the reason ...
So the thing I was looking for, is actually already there  

Thanks for the hint, I will try this maybe tomorrow, ..., and then I leave on vacation


Offline ikke

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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 11:16:03 AM »
Quote from: EricL
I am opposed to #1.  (...)
I both understand and agree with the physical objections you have.  My interest in this basically comes from the desire to co-evolve competing species. I don't want one to wipe out the other by the randomness of food availability or the first evolutionary adaptation. For this I need as I see it either very large fields and associated numbers of bots or the costX per species.
/OT: (1) One personal pet peeve in your statement regarding complexity vs efficiency. Evolution is not survival of the fittest, it is the extinction of the most unfit. It does not strive towards complexity. Any added compexity will only survive if it is as least as efficient.
(2) Sheperd bots are ID and at least as artificial as cost and costX.
Quote from: EricL
I have no objections to #2 and #3.  I will add them to the list.
For which I am grateful. The flower emoticon is painfully absent
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 11:17:33 AM by ikke »