Author Topic: Crows are pretty damn smart  (Read 47308 times)

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2008, 07:59:07 PM »
Quote from: Ta-183
Now, what do we do when we assume......

I dont know. tell me

And im not assuming.
I said most because most, if not all of my atheist friends, get all grumpy and shut off when they hear God mentioned.
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Offline Ta-183

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« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2008, 08:03:22 PM »
I don't, and I'm an atheist.

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2008, 08:09:59 PM »
well that is why I said most.
talking from my experiences here, sorry.
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #108 on: November 29, 2008, 11:41:28 AM »
Quote from: d-EVO
I said most because most, if not all of my atheist friends, get all  and shut off when they hear God mentioned.
I depends on how I hear god. You don't have to try to get me converted, if I want to look what a religion is about I'll go look ask myself. Still I find it rarely mentioned in conversations. I know some that have a religion, but rarely they bring up religion.

If some jehovah's witnes comes up at the door, I quickly tell them I'm not interested. I also knew someone from school that was a jehova, took some time before I knew that, I don't really have that much conversations about religion. (later I heard she stopped with that school under pressure from the jehova's)


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The big bang, evolution, and such only contradict genesis, which, IMO, wasn't exactly divinely inspired. It looks more like someone "found out" answers to the questions people were giving him about how the earth was made and decided to make it scripture.
In that view, do you then state most main religions are wrong, in the sense that they do believe in a genesis. Do you believe in a completely other way then those religions?

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And no, the gnome doesn't fit there too.
It does, until you find a theory that has definite prove, gnomes don't exist.

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And, as you know, there are no scientific theories proving God, but from my point of view, this says nothing- if God really made the universe, and if the point of our existence is really to develop faith, then isn't it in His best interest to make the universe in such a way that science cannot find absolute proof of His existence? That completely eliminates faith, doesn't it? So the "there's no proof" argument is moot, right?
If he exists, and if we have do develop faith. But indeed a god should be able to stop us from finding proof for his existance. In this it could exist. Then the question could be why? Why do we have to develop faith, that's more in the filosofic direction.


Quote from: jknilinux
anyway, d-evo -

I must say I agree, there are bad apples in any bunch. That doesn't mean the religious viewpoint of those apples is wrong.

There are radical atheists (who hate theists) and radical theists (who hate atheists)- they're considered nuts by the normal people on both sides.
I'm not sure what the radical sides mean.
Oh my god, who the hell cares.

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #109 on: November 29, 2008, 12:14:15 PM »
Quote from: Peter
If some jehovah's witnes comes up at the door, I quickly tell them I'm not interested. I also knew someone from school that was a jehova, took some time before I knew that, I don't really have that much conversations about religion. (later I heard she stopped with that school under pressure from the jehova's)

just so you dont get the wrong idea
jehovah's witnes is not accepted as part of the christian faith.
many christians view jehovah's witnes as a cult. dont mean to offend any of you that are a jehovah's witnes .
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2008, 04:40:16 PM »
Personally I take a more humanist view towards religion.  It's about spirituality.  It's about magical thinking.  It's about a mythos, and being part of a community, and knowing who you are and what you want, and your place in the world.  That's the reason religions are so universal across all cultures and human experience.  And that's why the vast majority of them are so similar to each other.  It's as much apart of what it means to be human as storytelling an family and big feasts during holidays.  To not have something you're willing to believe in (whether God or whatever) is pathological.

It's not about what did or did not happen, or will or will not happen.  That's the realm of science.  The two are orthogonal.  Science, for the most part, doesn't trespass in the realm of faith, and faith doesn't trespass, for the most part, in the realm of science.  It's when either forgets its place that things get nasty.

Offline ikke

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« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2008, 03:17:50 AM »
Cult vs religion is trivial. The only difference is the number of followers.
Science, in the end, asks and answers the how of things. The law of gravity answers how the apple falls to the earth, not why. Neither does m theory. Some peole find comfort in answering the why question with god, others don't feel the need. When beliefs turn to religion things get nasty. The contribution of religion to civilsation is perfectly summed up by quoting a french bisshop: Kill them all, God will recognise his own. Religion claims absolute truth, and by extension absolute power. People are not nice when things get absolute..

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2008, 03:32:47 AM »
Quote from: ikke
Religion claims absolute truth, and by extension absolute power. People are not nice when things get absolute..

That's something of a straw man fallacy.  There are religions like that, but they're not all like that.  It's like you see something's shadow and think you know all about what casts it.  There are religions that cast no shadow.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #113 on: November 30, 2008, 03:44:12 AM »
Quote from: jknilinux
Bacillus-
What extremes?

Any you care to define. Everything is relative.


Quote from: d-EVO
=
Im pretty sure that when God created the universe there was one hell of a Bang.
Kind of like an LHC experiment gone wrong?
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan

Offline ikke

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« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2008, 07:01:06 AM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Quote from: ikke
Religion claims absolute truth, and by extension absolute power. People are not nice when things get absolute..

That's something of a straw man fallacy.  There are religions like that, but they're not all like that.  It's like you see something's shadow and think you know all about what casts it.  There are religions that cast no shadow.
Name on religion that claims no absolute truths...

Offline d-EVO

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« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2008, 08:30:11 AM »
Quote from: bacillus
Quote from: d-EVO
=
Im pretty sure that when God created the universe there was one hell of a Bang.
Kind of like an LHC experiment gone wrong?
lol

we should start another thread  discussing what we think is actualy going to happen
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2008, 12:18:27 AM »
Quote from: ikke
Quote from: Numsgil
Quote from: ikke
Religion claims absolute truth, and by extension absolute power. People are not nice when things get absolute..

That's something of a straw man fallacy.  There are religions like that, but they're not all like that.  It's like you see something's shadow and think you know all about what casts it.  There are religions that cast no shadow.
Name on religion that claims no absolute truths...


Your problem is that you're trying to understand religions like they're doing the same thing that science is.  You're equating things like the creation myths, and where we go when we die, as representative of the whole religion.

Although it's not a religion, I'd say that the Free Masons, from what I understand of them, come closest to representing what I see religions as.  They're about metaphor, stories, ceremony, community, etc.  It doesn't matter if the stories are "true" in the sense that you're thinking.  The lessons they teach have "truth".  If they didn't the religion wouldn't exist, because it wouldn't offer anything to its believers.

With Christianity, it doesn't matter if Christ was a divine figure or not.  It in no way changes the "truth" of Christianity.  With Buddhism, it doesn't matter if reincarnation occurs or not, Buddhism still has "truth" in its examination of the human condition.  And probably what confuses scientifically minded people the most is that when it comes to spiritual truths, two ideas can be in direct conflict and still have truth.

So basically, all religions have absolute truths.  It's just not in the way you're thinking.

edit: wiki has come in use one more.  Life stance is pretty close to what I mean when I talk about religion.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 12:21:47 AM by Numsgil »

Offline ikke

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« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2008, 04:32:45 AM »
Don’t get me wrong. I have no issue with people comtemplating the the why of the universe, or how to live their life better. I have no issue with them taking inspiration from religious scriptures in doing so.
You’re off track if you think my interpretation of religions is the basis for the issues I have with them. For all you now I happen to think Christ is devine, or to believe Christ is devine. My interpretation is my own. The issue I have is that people are willing to burn you alive, because you have doubted the notion of Christ’s divinity, or reincarnation or whatever their interpretation is of whatever.
To me the corruption of religion is mixing the notion of absolute truths with humanity. As said people are not nice when things get absolute. Religion is a human construct, and the notion of absolute truth opens the door for abuse. It lulls people into not thinking when they should, because people are taught absolute truths exist and people have told them what they are.
This abuse can be as benevolent as people doing the right thing not because it is right, but because they will be rewarded in eternity. It regresses into social ostracism for not adhering to group standards, pressuring children and their parents into not mentioning abuse to religion based mass murder. The ideals religions embody may not be to blame but their claim to absolute truth is.


Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2008, 01:41:24 PM »
Definitely, it can be used to bad ends.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2008, 01:05:46 AM »
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I disagree. I'd say a cult is a religious group that performs practices viewed as negative by the general population. Satan worshipers are a cult and will remain so, so long as they do not constitute more than 50% of the population. LDS- and christian scientist- members do not perform any practices generally viewed as negative, so they are not cults. Wikipedia, btw, agrees with me.

Do you mean Luciferism?  Actually it's a fascinating religion, very different from Christianity.  I wouldn't call it a cult.  The emphasis is on the individual and to me a cult means strong authoritarian overtones.