Bank-crisis

[Peter]

I gues it is the payment and the chance for losing a job, that do make incourage people to do a good job. In a communist-society everybody chould be secure in living. And therefor there isn't a real incouragement to do a good job. You'll live the same anyway.

I think you can trust anyone who does it for profit. If you as a company doing it not very well. You will get complains and a bad name. Overall I think the situation in the west is pretty good. Company's know a good name means profit.

And I tend to agree with numsgil, someone has to do the 'unpleasant' jobs. By paying more to some jobs you will eventually get at every spot the number of people there is needed.
I am too afraid that if everything is free, nobody would do a thing becouse that wouldn't matter. Why would they. In a small tribe most see each other as family or friends. Why would anyone create cars without getting anything back. And giving them to people witch you won't know what they do. Maybe you're creating a lot of cars for free, but they're doing nothing.
I could see this working in a small tribe, but big scale would be hard.
A small tribe is too, well small. And they need less per person then we take.

Hmm, I don't like agreeing with numsgil. Maybe I should read into it and see the good of it.

[Testlund]

I think you can trust anyone who does it for profit.

Please tell me you misspelled that!

If you as a company doing it not very well. You will get complains and a bad name

Some companies care about that, but only as far as they can keep up the profits, which doesn't mean their products must be all that good. A lot of companies keep selling products that simply don't work. We have this consumer program here in Sweden that constantly shows worthless products and services where companies rip people off and try to use silly excuses when confronted with it.

Also this idea doesn't have anything to do with communism. Would you call a tribe in the jungle a communist tribe because it doesn't sell or buy or have a government? In the movie they talk about that you wouldn't need a government at all in such society, because politicians don't have the competence anyway. I think you would need some kind of leaders though to keep things together, but ultimately it would be the people together in different communtities that should plan and decide the best solutions for their particular community.

[Numsgil]

Big companies that have been around for a while know that their reputation translates directly into business.  If they screw lots of people word gets around and they lose business.  That's not to say they won't screw people, but they're going to try and do it in a way so that you won't figure it out

For instance, when I buy something at Walmart, I know I can return it for any reason within X days (like 3o I think).  Even food.  I could eat half an apple and return it probably.  This is a loss for Walmart in the shortrun, but they do it because then when I go to buy an expensive item I'll do it there, knowing that I have that return policy to guard against crap.  They screw us in more subtle ways, like labor practices and buying cheap stuff from Taiwan instead of domestic companies.

I think what you're talking about is called anarcho-communism.  There's no government but the means of production and the goods are communally owned.  Wiki the term and see if it sounds right.

[Testlund]

Ok, I looked it up, but anarcho-communism wasn't quite what I was thinking, because it means getting rid of private property. I can't answear for The venus Project as I've only looked at it a little, but supposedly they only mean that the natural resources should belong to everybody.

For instance, when I buy something at Walmart, I know I can return it for any reason within X days (like 3o I think). Even food. I could eat half an apple and return it probably. This is a loss for Walmart in the shortrun, but they do it because then when I go to buy an expensive item I'll do it there, knowing that I have that return policy to guard against crap. They screw us in more subtle ways, like labor practices and buying cheap stuff from Taiwan instead of domestic companies.

There's a balance between consumers and companies, people and government, uphold by the fact that people have some power to chose and have democratic power, but I see this balance is tipping over to the worse. Things have gone down hill quite much here in Sweden because people have gotten lazy and spoiled and don't care about protecting our unique democracy. We have this phenomenon here in Sweden where the left party is bringing the country down slowly while the right party is bringing it down fast. Every new generation of voters don't know that and make the mistake of voting for the right party (well there's actually several but it's always the same one that wins because they are allied. Look it up if you want to know more how it works) and finds it suddenly goes hell of a lot worse. Oops! Bring back the left! And then it goes back to the slow degrading again.  

[Peter]

Ok, I looked it up, but anarcho-communism wasn't quite what I was thinking, because it means getting rid of private property. I can't answear for The venus Project as I've only looked at it a little, but supposedly they only mean that the natural resources should belong to everybody.

Well I pretty stuborn so don't blame me. But only the natural recources. Isn't that already true? Everybody has the sun, right. A gift-giving society where you can have property. I don't know the idea sounds less. There will still be people that have greed and find a way to own a halve city.

There's a balance between consumers and companies, people and government, uphold by the fact that people have some power to chose and have democratic power, but I see this balance is tipping over to the worse. Things have gone down hill quite much here in Sweden because people have gotten lazy and spoiled and don't care about protecting our unique democracy. We have this phenomenon here in Sweden where the left party is bringing the country down slowly while the right party is bringing it down fast. Every new generation of voters don't know that and make the mistake of voting for the right party (well there's actually several but it's always the same one that wins because they are allied. Look it up if you want to know more how it works) and finds it suddenly goes hell of a lot worse. Oops! Bring back the left! And then it goes back to the slow degrading again.  

I am not entirely sure what it had to do with numsgil post.  
Anyway, I gues your right and left is something else then it here is. I think the left-wing breaks the country and the right-wing fixes it.
If I look in the history of Dutch-politics it is rarely that there keep the same parties in control. Any party that is in control is always doing it wrong(or so the people think). That way coalitions and parties keep changing.
I don't vote left, becouse left always wants to put money in green-stuff. And becouse I know how much money 'nature' gets. A company that is filled with old-lefties gets three times as much money for an amount of land that they own(for rare grasses,  yeah sure) and rent to a farmer, from the goverment + rent-income from the respective farmer, as where a farmer has to work hard for on his land.

I don't vote that one serious right-party becouse they took subsidy-off the windmills and biogas-instalations. And want to wreck(and are wrecking) farmer-subsidy.
Last time I voted, I did vote a kindoff center-right party. More the least bad then the best, but it is always like that.

[Testlund]

Everybody has the sun, right

That's just one resource, and you can't get solar energy for free, can you? I wander what my landlord would say if put up a solar panel here, not to mension what it costs to get one. Then you have all the other resources like wood, iron etc. You can't just go and dig that up somewhere. You need to see how controlled everything is, that you need permition for everything.

I am not entirely sure what it had to do with numsgil post.

The first sentence was a reply to Numsgil, then I ranted on with some extra.   I suppose you don't care what's going on in little Sweden.  

I think the left-wing breaks the country and the right-wing fixes it.

SIGH!   As long as you never get sick, lose your job and are well paid, then yeah. Unfortunately the right wing never cares to prevent this, instead they increase poverty and class differences.

[Peter]

That's just one resource, and you can't get solar energy for free, can you? I wander what my landlord would say if put up a solar panel here, not to mension what it costs to get one. Then you have all the other resources like wood, iron etc. You can't just go and dig that up somewhere. You need to see how controlled everything is, that you need permition for everything.

Yes, you need permits for everything. I know, I know. They're for a purpose, often I think they're missing a goal. But it could go completely wrong if everyone could do everything.
Still, where is the border between natural recource/and not natural recource. I don't think iron is natural, it already had a complete change from iron-ore. And if not, is a car a natural recource?

The first sentence was a reply to Numsgil, then I ranted on with some extra.   I suppose you don't care what's going on in little Sweden.  

Depends, is it that bad in Sweden then? Sweden is a lot bigger the the Netherlands anyway.

SIGH!   As long as you never get sick, lose your job and are well paid, then yeah. Unfortunately the right wing never cares to prevent this, instead they increase poverty and class differences.

In the netherlands my feeling about social security is that it is plenty. As left-wing wants to increase it and spent more on it. Have a good living without a job, as I think it should be barely enough to live.
Where I think that money should better be spend to get people working, if they want an education or courses they get one. Don't they have a job, give them a job. In the netherlands there are pretty much of those institutions who have work for job-seekers. Those jobs are then for a big part paid by the goverment, these jobs often are simple jobs like assembly line work. Not that everything is bad just most.

I often think the left-wing wastes more money then they're spending right. That's why I've never voted a left-wing party. It isn't like they never have good ideas but more wrong ones. And further left parties tend to want to control everything. More regulations, increase taxes on particulair stuff. Just coming to more and more people coming in civil service. And I think that's bad.

[Testlund]

And further left parties tend to want to control everything. More regulations, increase taxes on particulair stuff.

I agree with that and I'm not particularly fond of the left either. It's the lesser of 2 evils imo. I vote for the green party here, which isn't loyal to any of the others. It shifts between the blocks of parties depending on how much those parties support them. Doing right should be more important then loyalty both in politics and employment. A lot of people are doing wrong in their positions out of loyalty to the bosses.