Author Topic: The F1 League lives again!  (Read 42786 times)

Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #135 on: September 23, 2008, 03:06:07 PM »
If an enemy bot ties to spinner it pushes a positive value into tieval, so if the oponent is trying to tie feed it will get drained.
Didn't know if it's alowed... tecnicaly it won't affect F2 league results since none of the oponent will attempt to tie feed (If they did they wouldn't be F2).
But it will affect F1 performance... it doesn't change the outcome of the fights, but in some cases it will finish the fight a lot faster.

Either way if there's any doubt just let the gene push 0 into tieval instead of a positive number... then it won't counter leech, it should still beat all the same bots but some fights will take longer in F1, and it might actualy make some fights a litle faster in F2....

I just figured it was a grey area... counter leeching isn't realy tie feeding, and it doesn't affect F2 results... so figured it would be fine.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #136 on: September 23, 2008, 03:11:52 PM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
If an enemy bot ties to spinner it pushes a positive value into tieval, so if the oponent is trying to tie feed it will get drained.
Didn't know if it's alowed... tecnicaly it won't affect F2 league results since none of the oponent will attempt to tie feed (If they did they wouldn't be F2).
But it will affect F1 performance... it doesn't change the outcome of the fights, but in some cases it will finish the fight a lot faster.

Either way if there's any doubt just let the gene push 0 into tieval instead of a positive number... then it won't counter leech, it should still beat all the same bots but some fights will take longer in F1, and it might actualy make some fights a litle faster in F2....

I just figured it was a grey area... counter leeching isn't realy tie feeding, and it doesn't affect F2 results... so figured it would be fine.
I gues you don't get my point. The bot itself drains other bots with his own ties.
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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2008, 03:37:21 PM »
Ehm... no that shouldn't happen, the counter leeching gene is only there as a backup for when the bot isn't the one who formed the tie...
When the bot forms a tie it will use the attacks stored in the birth gene.

Here are the attacks used in spinner 1.5 :

[div class=\'codetop\']CODE[div class=\'codemain\' style=\'height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto\']'-------Tie actions (5)
.eye5dir .startloc store
682 .startloc 1 add store
.vloc .startloc 2 add store
174 .startloc 3 add store
'.memloc .startloc 4 add store '-- Funny, but no point in both stealing keys and breaking conspecs
'173 .startloc 5 add store
.mrepro .startloc 4 add store '-- Also funny, but can mess up the stolen eye and shoot conspecs
65 .startloc 5 add store
.shootval .startloc 6 add store
32000 .startloc 7 add store
.strbody .startloc 8 add store
31999 .startloc 9 add store
'--------

It's executed here :
[div class=\'codetop\']CODE[div class=\'codemain\' style=\'height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto\']*.state .torpedo =
*.toponent .enemy =
*.numties 0 >
*.robage 1 >
start
*.tiepres .tienum store
.locs 1 sub rnd 2 mult .startloc add dup * .tieloc store
1 add * .tieval store

And the bot only uses ties when in the "torpedo" state...

So you should only see the bot drain other bots if it's a tie feeder trying to eat it.

However you will see the torpedoes tie to bots and see them die, but it's not eating their energy, it's making them spend it in other ways.

Offline Peter

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« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2008, 04:01:17 PM »
Quote from: Moonfisher
And the bot only uses ties when in the "torpedo" state...

So you should only see the bot drain other bots if it's a tie feeder trying to eat it.

However you will see the torpedoes tie to bots and see them die, but it's not eating their energy, it's making them spend it in other ways.
I didn't even knew a F2-bot may send commands to the other bot to spend nrg or do you meant another way?
I did never seen it used in F2.

Strange, I saw it connecting to a bot that isn't forming ties. I isolated it, the 'torpedo' and the tied bot. And I saw torpedo getting nrg and the other bot losing nrg.
If I redo the sim, then I can't see torpedo gained nrg every time I saw it connected, but I do see it in some cases gaining nrg. Atleast I am sure that in those cases the specific 'leaching' gene was activated. I did check that earlier.

Are the sysvars the leach-gene writes too, always overwriten. Or are there specific cases when not. Just thinking at a bot that doesn't make any ties itself.

I bet that bot would win F2 again without that leaching gene. So much harm can't be done then.
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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »
Are you sure it isn't from eating it's body or something... the only thing in there that could cause leeching is the counter leech gene, so it shouldn't be able to leech from anything other than tie feeders...
I don't see what else could be causing it... there's nothing in there to leech while in torpedo state... Maybe if the bot feeds friends and has been fooled by the conspec thing....
My guess would be the energy comes from eating it's own body or something, check to see if it's losing body size while gaining energy... or maybe a multibot trying to share nrg, I noticed the early versions of seasnake fell for the fake conspec and tried to form a snake with spinner and sharing energy with them...

Either way feel free to replace the 31000 with 0... I also wrote that as comment right above the gene in case anyone had objections to using counter leeching in F2...
But don't remove the entire gene, there's a line with a ' in it, use that line instead of the one with 31000...
And the results should be the same, since the counter leeching gene only affects tie feeders... there's nothing in the code that would cause the oponent to push -1 or -6 into tieloc, so only a tie feeder would be affected by the gene.
All I can say is that if a non tie feeder is ending up giving energy to spinner then I had nothing to do with it
But as mentioned, feel free to swap the tieval line the only difference should be a few fights in F1 that last a litle longer.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:01:27 PM by Moonfisher »

Offline Commander Keen

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« Reply #140 on: September 23, 2008, 05:42:26 PM »
I'll run it again without the leaching. It didn't take long to reach 1st place, so it won't waste too much time running it again. Luckily since it blasted right up to 1st place it hasn't invalidated any of the other results

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #141 on: September 24, 2008, 12:31:01 AM »
Fruit Flies and Spinner 1.5 are currently fighting it out for 18th and 19th place; if fruit flies wins, it might get even further, but not much is happening at the moment.
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #142 on: September 24, 2008, 04:21:34 AM »
Hmm, I happen to be wrong.

If it tie-feeds atleast it doesn't do this reguarly.
I have seen it not tiefeeding when it had the possibility more often then when it really was doing it, if it was? Not tie-feeding every time would be strange, so probably it wasn't tie-feeding.

Nice bot anyway, his power is of course the conspec-fooling, but further it also uses the classic venom and even .mrepro...
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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2008, 07:00:48 AM »
Fruit flies should beat spinner without any trouble.... but it might take a while... spinner doesn't attack bots if they're too small and I think it might be fooling the conspec...
Either way some fights will take ages with fruit flies, it doesn't have a strong weapon to kill off most bots, it mostly just crowds up the place till they starve to death...

If it's having trouble with an oponent you can try setting the pop cap lower so the sim will run faster... just don't go too low, the whole strength of fruit flies is the fast reproduction.
But fruit flies should win all of it's batles evetualy...

Also wanted to mention that another strength in spinner is the eyes, it's realy fast at spotting enemies or alge, it also moves fast and precicely to it's target and boost shots according to need.
It also uses venom on alge and makes them turn to face it to recieve energy shots while feeding  And the reproduction while feeding also helps it seems... but spinner isn't great for F1 though... would have thought it could have made it further than 19th place though.... but haven't tested most of the new bots for the last few months...

Offline EricL

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« Reply #144 on: September 24, 2008, 02:24:08 PM »
WHy do we not see any of these bots do well in internet mode?  Is it because no-one introduces them or it is because they can't compete effectivly in that environment?
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #145 on: September 24, 2008, 03:03:55 PM »
Quote from: EricL
WHy do we not see any of these bots do well in internet mode?  Is it because no-one introduces them or it is because they can't compete effectivly in that environment?
IMO fruitflies in IM, NO. It would couse a major slowdown. Spinner could be interesting.

In my case, I tend not be able to connect well to IM. For example I introduced republican bee, excelibur and my own animal multi and multiply. For some strange reason I always get some mutated multiply back that kills the others. And very rare a seasnake.
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Offline EricL

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« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2008, 03:41:08 PM »
I saw you connected to IM, got some bots from you, seemed to work just fine from this end.

You may have old bots from long ago in your local transfer directory.  May be where the multiply's come from.  You can delete them if you want to get rid of them.

No bot can slow down IM.  Transfer rates are throttled and each sim follows its own parameters to control population...
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #147 on: September 24, 2008, 03:50:30 PM »
Quote from: EricL
I saw you connected to IM, got some bots from you, seemed to work just fine from this end.

You may have old bots from long ago in your local transfer directory.  May be where the multiply's come from.  You can delete them if you want to get rid of them.

No bot can slow down IM.  Transfer rates are throttled and each sim follows its own parameters to control population...
Not sure what your parameters are, else then a hardcoded limit I can't see one. Try the bot if you wonder how.

Yes, I just connected. Just to check connection. Filed fairly soon an bug too.
I'll be fairly soon away too. Maybe later I setup a computer that continue with IM.


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Offline Moonfisher

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« Reply #148 on: September 24, 2008, 05:23:46 PM »
I'm working on a fruitfly for IM atm, but I'm still waiting for a working version of the new seasnake to come in (The only ones I've seen are badly mutated).
It'll be a while before I have something ready for IM, trying to figure out how to make a good multibot....

Offline EricL

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« Reply #149 on: September 24, 2008, 05:30:46 PM »
I have been unsuccessful in hand-authoring a version of Seasnake that can long survive against the mutated version, now at 3000+ mutations.  Think of that.  Over 3000 mutations.  Fricking amazing.  Whether hand-authored bots can do well against such beasts is the root of curiosity.
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