Author Topic: Nutrients, Vitamins and Minerals  (Read 7381 times)

Offline rsucoop

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Nutrients, Vitamins and Minerals
« on: March 04, 2008, 04:19:03 PM »
Perhaps a method could be introduced to emulate the presence of nutrients, etc. Their levels within the field can be set in the settings, this could allow bots to change certain atributes, such as quality of vision, ways to eleminate certain amounts of pwaste, etc. They would have to be put into veggies with individual levels of the three categories, and would be necessary for any improvements in lonjevity within the simulation. They also be used as antivruses, antivenom, antipoison and better tie holds. Perhaps even, it would be helpful to add a new shot(s) to the game to allow bots to transfer these nutrients/vitamins/minerals. Some would build up, some would stay shorter than others. What do you think?

Offline JossiRossi

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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2008, 01:56:03 AM »
Personally I dislike the rigid nature of this idea. It pushes functionality to an end by giving analogous situations that we have to the bots which I don't think is the right way to go. For us Vitamin C (I think?) can help our vision. However, it won't improve EVERYTHINGS vision. Some critters it could kill outright. A better system would be to have all these base materials that exist. Be they similar to proteins, chemicals, minerals, or just molecules, and just let them exist. On their own they are utterly worthless they are neither beneficial or detrimental (although in nature things that are not beneficial or at least regulated to neutral by intentional design of the DNA tends to be detrimental and fatally so). Then the bots DNA can determine what things are used for what reason. Perhaps a bot can use Chem A to make it's eyes better, or maybe it absorbs it and uses it as a hopefully poisonous shot to a predator, or it lays it down as a marker for it's own kind, and the skies the limit.

I say keep it as open as possible as that's what lets the really neat stuff in Darwinbots shine.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 08:41:18 AM »
Simplicity of design is my goal.  At the moment, I'm thinking about defining stuff in the bots' universe at a very high level.  Bots use protein to build muscle.  Fat to store nrg.  That sort of thing.  Basically four primary bases: nrg, fat, protein, and waste.  These four bases define the basic nutrition model.  For more complex interactions, like shell for instance, I'm thinking that bots combine the bases in certain non-refundable ways.  Use protein to for shell.  Fat to form slime.  Waste for poison, etc.  

I have the theoretical framework for a more complex biochemistry, but I just think it's too much, and not in keeping with the basic aesthetic for Darwinbots.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 08:41:58 AM by Numsgil »

Offline rsucoop

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 11:44:29 PM »
You guys are missing the point; it all has to do with metablism of a bot. If its built to eat vitamins, it should never get to a level to kill it. Essentially minerals would be similair to waste, only it would allow for the breakdown of vitamins which are antivral and a form of energy. All the rates and amounts of these three types could be set for the field, and veggies would pick em up, or some speices may try to collect from tie feeding. It doesnt need a complex interaction with the bots; just similar features with more.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2008, 10:45:08 AM »
Try to break down what you're saying in to basic gameplay changes.  The only way it would be interesting is if it were limited, if the resources were finite.  But finite resources don't make for a strong ecology.  Scarcity is for deserts.  We're trying to build a system that allows for an ecosystem, and in a stable ecosystem, it's always a matter of carrying capacity.  If the limiting resource is nrg, and only nrg, it makes controlling the pace and flow of an ecosystem much easier.

But we can take the core idea, that bots can do something, and increase the strength and effect of their abilities, and run with it.  At present, I'm imagining bots building pretty much every physical object (muscle, other bots, ties, connections, etc.) from protein.  Muscle (might/would) be specialized, so a bot could specialize at just shooting, or just moving.  Maybe there are some ideas you'd like to explore within this framework.  I think there's a post about it in this DB3 forum somewhere.

Offline rsucoop

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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2008, 12:21:18 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Try to break down what you're saying in to basic gameplay changes.  The only way it would be interesting is if it were limited, if the resources were finite.  But finite resources don't make for a strong ecology.  Scarcity is for deserts.  We're trying to build a system that allows for an ecosystem, and in a stable ecosystem, it's always a matter of carrying capacity.  If the limiting resource is nrg, and only nrg, it makes controlling the pace and flow of an ecosystem much easier.

But we can take the core idea, that bots can do something, and increase the strength and effect of their abilities, and run with it.  At present, I'm imagining bots building pretty much every physical object (muscle, other bots, ties, connections, etc.) from protein.  Muscle (might/would) be specialized, so a bot could specialize at just shooting, or just moving.  Maybe there are some ideas you'd like to explore within this framework.  I think there's a post about it in this DB3 forum somewhere.

Nutrients: Essential for lonjevity and Pwaste removal. Implementation in game, Nutrients are heavy and are mostly a sediment based feature, so a bot needs conections or roots to the ground to bring them out. So a bot that feeds from a veg could just gather nrg, but it could also Nutrient steal through the tie. I believe that a veg should have to be fixed when not in pond mode. In pond mode this feature would have to be changed slightly, since it is suspended in the water. This would have a finite number of possible amounts and a finite number of starting amounts, in order to release more decay would need to occur, or a bot would have to consume bots without Nutrients to bio-synthesize this. At no point should the amount of Nutrients in a bot that biosynthesized, intefere with the amount available in the field. A bot can take any other form of body or pwaste and convert it into nutrients with a 3-1 ratio (I.e. 3 nrg to make 1 Nutrient). Nutrient levels should equal pwaste levels to counter the effects of pwaste, but Nutrients cannot exceed the amount of body present by 10%. Why? Because it requires a lot of storage for such a form of energy. At any point a bot can turn Nutrients into energy with a 1-2 ration; 1 Nutrient to 2 energy. This is because biosynthethis uses some energy to make the transfers, so its 100% efficient.

Minerals: Basically a for a pbody; it is not possible to remove heavy elements from the body without an external aid (not presently implemented in game). Minerals should be kept at low levels, why? Simple, if the mineral level should grow beyond the pwaste and nrg, then the Minerals are obsorbing the bots energy and effectively disproving the bots efficiency. How Minerals work for a bot? Minerals are a form of Body, and build up every time a tie feed occurs. It cannot easily be prevented, and leaves the bots body at a logorythmic rate, so the level is never = to 0. It is also recomended that the default settings for Minerals int eh Field be set extremely low. But by having a mineral count between this critical limit and this defaulted 1, a bot can effectively recieve information better and faster through the eyes. I'm not sure if the refvars will eb cycled int eh new DB3, but this would certainly affect any focus switch, it can help to have minerals to function. Minerals help keep musscles moving, joints frictionless and improve thought speeds of a bot. (also not suer if fatigue is going to be introduced). Minerals also allow the biosynthesis of Shells, as well as secondary shot points, they can also repare damage cell walls. 1 Mineral makes 1 Shell.

Vitamins: The building blocks of cellular structurs. Vitamins are the inbetween things; they are stored like fat but with a slight advantage, and can be used as immediate energy with problems in pwaste. Because Vitamins are needed for biosynthesis, no conversions of Nutrients to NRG can occur, or Minerals - to shell. Vitamins also reduce the effective time of venom and poison on a bot. Vitamin levels should not exceed the nrg levels of a bot, but should not be below the level of minerals. For enteractions with minerals, .5 vitamins are spent. Vitamins also allow for obsorbtion of Nutrients, allowing Nutrients to be converted to body or nrg. FOr interactions with Nutrients a loss of .25 is seen in Vitamins. Vitamin level should be considerably low, since it would not take much to see an effect. They can also be biosynthesised inside of veggies, at a cost of 2-1 nrg-vitamins.

Offline rsucoop

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 01:08:35 PM »
So, what do you guys think?

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 06:10:15 PM »
eh, sorry, I'm in the process of moving so I'm a little distracted...

I think there are some good ideas here, but it's coming with a lot of baggage that isn't necessary.  Part of the issue here is that I don't think nutrient and mineral are good names for what you're doing there.  Actual vitamins and minerals have a more complex interaction with out metabolism than what you describe, or even what weird pseudo-science health and diet infomercials suggest.

I do think one more mechanism is needed.  Something to expand the basic interactions I'm thinking of right now.  I do like the idea of more waste types.  Maybe we expand in that direction.  I'll try to give more definite answers when I settle down a bit and have a second to work it all through on paper.

Offline rsucoop

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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 02:02:08 PM »
Perhaps minerals and nutrients could form smells as a form of waste once they have been used. Some minerals are consumed by cells, such as iron, while excess simply gets pushed around until it settles. Having them leak out as smells would make sense, being that salt is a mineral and cuases our sweat to stink. This would also mean that anytime a bot pushed out these minerals/nutrients or whatever, smell would be produced as abiproduct, allowing for other bots to pick up there sent.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2008, 04:18:24 PM »
I think "flavoring" () waste is a good idea.  If it's something like slime, that washes away, you can smell the washed away slime and know that a bot with slime is pretty close.  If two bots are battling you can smell the broken shell bits.  Likewise with venom and poison.

Offline rsucoop

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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2008, 04:30:48 PM »
There should also be a size value for waste. Strong smelling waste, meaning it has more of one type of flavor that, would mask weaker odors, and possibly blend the two wastes together. I'm sure this would really take away from small bot identity, but for Mutlibots this shouldn't make much difference.

Flavors: There are different categories of each; Minerals tend to be less pleasurful, and can be toxic in large doses. Vitamins tend to be sweet and aromatic, sort of like fatty-acids or oranges. Nutrients are neutral and only enhance smells of other smelly particles.

So Minerals overpower Vitamins when =or>.
Vitamins can't overpower minerals, but can be blended if Vitamins are greater per particle than Minerals.
Nutrients blend Minerals and Vitamins.

Each level can be detected and interpreted to decide which waste contains what informaiton about which bot. So if two smells enter a bots' nose, it can use information about what minerals, nutrients or vitamins it may contain.

As far as bio-synthesis is concerned, I think Minerals should only come from veggies, since they eat from the earth. Vitamins and nutrients can be made from fat.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2008, 06:43:22 PM »
Nutrients are a good idea, but need to establish a balance between availability and difficulty to find. I think that nutrients are made optional; thus, veggies and the like can be used to convert packages of waste into vitamins, have random shapes that contain mineral bubbles, mineral geysers that hurt you in exchange for an abundance off minerals etc. Then, when a bot dies, minerals are released in their normal form, and vitamins are released in the form of waste which can be deposited by veggies which completes the cycle.
 The idea behind the nutrient bubbles is to emulate soil, where plants and bacteria break open the particles by ramming or digesting it, not for food, but to break it up and move it. Nutrients should be more available in more hostile areas eg, the geyser, or areas where its more elaborate to reach them eg. locked in shapes, so that the growth of the ecosystem relies on plants and such first releasing nutrients. Vitamins help build up a secondary food chain, where waste is recycled by plants.

How would smell be implemented, seeing it can come from mulitple directions? The strongest smell is reported in type, bearing and intensity?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 06:49:57 PM by bacillus »
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2008, 07:11:57 PM »
Ah, I am reminded of a feature I wanted to implement with shapes.  The idea being that shapes are made up of a substance (which I called "hard"), which bots can ingest, poop out, and build shell from, but is otherwise useless.  Primarily it was something to be used to build structures with (either by removing it from shapes (ant colony) or building with it (human fortress)).  So I think the idea of minerals is somewhat similar.  Not sure I want to call it minerals though (because the word "minerals" has a lot of real world conceptual baggage that comes along with it).  Maybe we can call it "silicates"?  That allows for real world analogy, like with poison and slime, without too many preconceived notions of how it should fit in to the feature set.

I'm not sure about the idea of vitamins though.  I would like to see some more core substances.  If we take the idea above, silicates can be thought of as a consequence of bot-shape interaction.  I think that's the way to go to add new features.  Instead of making the bot-bot interactions more complex we should try to think of more ways to enrich the bot-environment interaction.  The current combat model (and hopefully my proposed changes to it (basically allowing one bot to swallow another)) strikes a good balance between simplicity and complexity, so I don't want to add too much to it.

I'll have to go back and read the threads in this forum to refresh my memory about the sort of things I wanted to do.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 07:12:46 PM by Numsgil »

Offline rsucoop

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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 12:47:00 AM »
Wow. Ok.

The VItamin nutrient mineral cycle is nice. And the strongest smell would give the strength and direction, and speed it was moving relative to the object that emmited it.

Calcium is a Vitamin, Vitamin D, which can be used to create a so called exo-skeleton similair to a shell. This means a bot could emit vitamins and minerals at the same time to create different types of materials. The balance between mineral content and vitamin count would mean the difference between a flexible soft shell, or a hard brital one, or even an in-between variation. This would allow for veggies to produce effective exo-skeletons as a multi-bot, empty shells capable of absorbing some nrg, and the minerals are destroyed in shots, meaning the vitamins fall off and the shell erodes. Now we can produce acids and shells, acids would help keep a balance so defensive heavy bots dont dominate because of poor balancing. Acids are made from vitamins and energy. So we have several new shot types to consider:

Acid
Shell
Mineral
Vitamin

Shells should carry alot of mass with them, making them bulkier and slower, depending on the distribution of vitamin to mineral count, minerals are heavier than vitamins (teeth vs quarter). I think this answer some key ideas.

Offline bacillus

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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 07:15:23 PM »
So you won't have shell or slime, but a shell-slime continuum? Could work, but I still think Numsgil's right; the bot-bot interactions are complex enough, and they need to be kept to a level where coding a simple is not an enormous job. Not sure about the bot-environment interactions though; may have to be kept optional so the environment settings don't become too inflexible.
 Not the best place to raise it, but since we are talking about shots, how about a type 1 and type 2 virus? A type 1 virus is standard make-and shoot, while type 2 acts more like a real virus, producing itself in bulk and releasing itself when the host dies. Maybe this can be achieved by not forcing the bot to wait until the previous bot is fired until the next is made.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 07:18:58 PM by bacillus »
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