Author Topic: Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.  (Read 19753 times)

Offline Numsgil

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2008, 01:21:43 PM »
The idea (for Christians) is that God gave the Israelites a simpler law, where everything was explicitly spelled out, after the disaster with the golden calf.  Presumably God also realizes that people are stupid and hateful, and he has some "trainer" religions to guide a people's development until they're prepared for a harder, higher law.

Offline Jez

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2008, 04:49:42 PM »
Wow, I 'accidently' stumble back upon this site and the first thread I stumble upon is this one...

I believe in science (it's different from believing in God) Religion has never had the upper hand over science in any path apart from that involving faith. May the great god Eric temper my posit's; I will make the time to fully consider the arguments posted in this thread (not having, in a sort of religous way, taken time to consider them yet).

I appologise, without even looking at the first post, I have assessed this argument as comparable to the 'Snopes trial' without proper research but I expect to return with time to challenge.

My regards to you all;
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Offline Testlund

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2008, 04:17:35 AM »
I agree that this has been the case, that religion has lost it's influence over people because it's been based on hearsay and fairy tales in books, not to mension all the suffering and problems it has caused people, while science has given more thorough and believable explanations. But it seems the scientists have reached a dead end here, where it's starting to be more theories and beliefs than proven facts, like the 4th dimension is time, travelling faster than light makes you travel back in time, string theory, multiple universes, membranes clashing into each other created the universe. Now... How is this a better explanation than saying there is a creator that started it all?
I saw someone posted somewhere that if he could travel around the planet faster than light he would go back and see the earth from the past. I am sure that the only thing that would happen is that everything would get blurry because images are stretched out, or maybe he wouldn't see anything at all because the light would miss his retina. But when he stops he would still be here in the present.
As I've mensioned before I'm sure time is a human made up concept, because we have memory and the ability to think ahead.
The solar system just happens to have a regular movement pattern which is just cause and effect, which gives the illusion of time.

I'm not SAYING that there is a god that created the universe. I just say that it's a possibility. You have this problem with the comological constant for instance, which says the probability for the universe to function as it does is too astronomical small to be by pure chance. If there had just been a tiny error the universe would have colapsed or never begun. And the fact is that the scientists claims that the law of physics break down when trying to find out what made it all and where it began.

Here's a video that mensions that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfngxVQiiTI
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Offline rsucoop

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2008, 11:52:14 PM »
Quote from: Testlund
I agree that this has been the case, that religion has lost it's influence over people because it's been based on hearsay and fairy tales in books, not to mension all the suffering and problems it has caused people, while science has given more thorough and believable explanations. But it seems the scientists have reached a dead end here, where it's starting to be more theories and beliefs than proven facts, like the 4th dimension is time, travelling faster than light makes you travel back in time, string theory, multiple universes, membranes clashing into each other created the universe. Now... How is this a better explanation than saying there is a creator that started it all?
I saw someone posted somewhere that if he could travel around the planet faster than light he would go back and see the earth from the past. I am sure that the only thing that would happen is that everything would get blurry because images are stretched out, or maybe he wouldn't see anything at all because the light would miss his retina. But when he stops he would still be here in the present.
As I've mensioned before I'm sure time is a human made up concept, because we have memory and the ability to think ahead.
The solar system just happens to have a regular movement pattern which is just cause and effect, which gives the illusion of time.

I'm not SAYING that there is a god that created the universe. I just say that it's a possibility. You have this problem with the comological constant for instance, which says the probability for the universe to function as it does is too astronomical small to be by pure chance. If there had just been a tiny error the universe would have colapsed or never begun. And the fact is that the scientists claims that the law of physics break down when trying to find out what made it all and where it began.

Here's a video that mensions that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfngxVQiiTI

People seem to get confused with Einstein and light and the 4th dimension. It's quite simple, as the source of the light exists in time, it grows outward into infinity. As time changes, the distance seems to grow but they are exactly the same, only after time. He was playing on the idea that light had an ether, that is how he came up with his theory of relativity. The 4th dimension was proposed as the ether for time. To say one can travel back in time is both true and false. We can never travel back to a time on the earth, but the light from the past can be percieved in the present. So every star we see is most likely dead. Given the average life span of a star, the speed of light and the massive distance, we experience the night sky on an average time-lag of at least 1 billion years. The information shows it at that position as it was then, but now it has already changed. So to say that staring at an object far away and having a lapse between what happened on point a and when it was seen at point b ten million light-years away, and something just created it is the same; is like saying that a miracle and god are the same thing. A miracle is just the coincidence of very improbable events happening in an improbable time; its not to say they dont happen, but no simple explination or current scientific explination stands to understand how or why these thigns happen. But to understand the universe requires more thought than any person on this Forum.

So simply explaining the 4th dimension:

It is a dependent axis which colapses around every object, but ot only one object is it dependant. So we have a Star-A, and a Star-B. Star-A is brand new, the nebula formation light hasn't even reached Star-B. Star-B is particulairly small in mass and is beeining pushed away from Star-A by Dark-Matter (scientifically proven using gravitational imaging, still controverseal, yet Einstein's greatest blunder was predicting its exsistance). Star-A travels at one Light-year away from Star-B; because this happens Star-B is never seen by Star-A, but Star-B sees all of Star-A's forming, then nothing the colors shifted due to the dopler effect. Let's say the opposite were the case, and Star A and Star-B are moving towards eachother. Not only will both their birth's be witnessed by any viewer on any star, but their deaths will happen at the same time, and be whitnessed by any survivors x-years later, unless they colide, at which point their time references are close enough. So the 4th dimension is an expading dimension into infinity. Alternate Universes is just the belief that really far away, so far we haven't even seen its explosion, another Universe was created from nothing to; its not so far-fetched. But saying some being created it is hard to believe.

He illustrated this very same principle on a train with a clock. A man positioned 60 meteres from a clock on a train wants to know what time it is. Light travels extremely fast, so he sees the time on the clock with relative ease; the difference int he trains speed is insigificant, since time's vector is not velocity/force dependant, and seems to carry no true weight. But say we speed the train up to 1/2 the speed of light, now the clokc is 1/2 as accurate, about 1/2 second off by his standards. Still to small to notice. So we accelerate the train to the speed of light, the light from the clock would never reach the man until he slowed down, at which point all the light would catch up and the clock would seem to fast-forward. But because time and space are related in a very parciluar way, it is not possible for most living organisms to accelerate to such a speed in less than the average African lifespan. The fact of physics failing to explain it has to do with theories that had nothing disproving it. THe mroe advanced we become, the more advanced the scientific answer becomes. A static universe was thought to exist, but EInstein calculated that the Universe would have to colapse or expand, but could not be stationary.

Anti-Matter was thought to not exist, and now its more and mroe common knowledge as how things work. Dark Matter is now being used to explain the structure of space. But the one theory of Chaos and Disorder is constant and true throughout the Universe, the only reason their is life on Earth is because their is constant change; change is a frequency and an energy. These two must be present for life to exist, without it there is only a energy depleted universe. Which in a few billion years the Universe will so outspread that everything in it will be near absolute zero. Secondly, everything has to be pure chance because Ape=Descendants of a highly evolved brain with almost no real defenses against the outside world or themselves has inherited the Earth; all studies are by some chance a part of the Human Genome. Our intuitive desire to explore and learn is what makes us ponder. The chance of anything in the Universe happening is in constant change, as it changes constantly, since everything has an effect: chaos theory; Fractals.

Offline fulizer

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2008, 09:53:57 AM »
Quote from: Testlund
1. Something can't appear out of nothing.
then where do they think god came from?
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Offline Testlund

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2008, 01:18:33 PM »
Well, there we have a dead end at the moment. God might have started out as something very simple. Like some instability of the endless void. Maybe God is dark matter, or maybe God is all the photons in the universe. I think the way to approach the problem is to try to define what God could be. What would be the most logical, and then trying to see how such a being could have formed. To just believe in the bible or saying there can't be a God is blocking ones mind from learning the truth. I haven't done much research on the cosmological constant (I'm afraid it's too much math for me) but if the creationists haven't missunderstood it completely, then they have the upper hand on that argument at least, that universe as we know it isn't possible without a creator because of the tiny chance for anything to exist and for physical laws to work.
So if God is outside of matter then he doesn't require a cosmological constant to exist, and might be something much simpler, with a mind. The mind and spirit may not be of matter either but an eternal force outside of it. Actually brain scientists haven't managed to find where the mind and awareness is located in the brain. It's just a bunch of cells sending electrical impulses. Maybe there's a soul in there holding it all together. :-)
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Offline EricL

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2008, 03:45:16 PM »
Testlund, your committing the classic error of assuming your conclusion.  Your bascially saying "There is a god and I will grasp at straws and enguage in wild speculation no matter how non-senscial in order to weave a tortured path to justify it" instead of looking at the evidence and drawing your conclusions based on that.

So much of what you say above is not only inaccurate and flawed logically, but does not even make sense.  What does it mean for something to be "outside of matter" or "all photons"?  Your basically spouting psuedo-science techno babble that pretends to say something but in reality is content free.

If you can't dazzle them with brillance, baffle them with bullshit.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 03:56:34 PM by EricL »
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Offline Testlund

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2008, 03:23:29 PM »
Then give me a better explanation! We're at the limit of our understanding about the universe here. I base my ideas on both theories and facts. Where the facts ends I try to find theories that makes most sense, and then I'm hoping those theories will either be proven wrong or right in the future. I'm open for both! It's just that right now I think that the existence of some kind of god is plausible.
You're welcome to bring some brilliance about how everything came to be which scientists agrees defies the laws of physics, because there are no physical laws before the big bang. Something must have existed outside of physical laws and matter that triggered all this.
To say it's impossible for a god to cause the existence of universe is equal bullshit to me. There's nothing wrong with theories as long as you don't force people to believe in them. I'm just giving you my point of view because I find this interesting to discuss.
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Offline EricL

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2008, 04:28:56 PM »
Quote from: Testlund
Then give me a better explanation! We're at the limit of our understanding about the universe here. I base my ideas on both theories and facts. Where the facts ends I try to find theories that makes most sense, and then I'm hoping those theories will either be proven wrong or right in the future. I'm open for both!

I'm with you, but an explanation for what exactly?  As I point out in the other thread, figuring out what questions to ask is much of the battle.  Even determining whether a question is well formed can be really hard.  A thousand years ago, asking what made the sun come up in the morning and go down every night was thought to be a well-formed question.  Everyone assumed the sun went around the earth.  Today that question (taken literally) does not make sense.  It is not well formed.  The sun does not come up and go down.  The earth rotates.  But people 1000 years ago did not know enough to ask the right question or to realize that the question they were asking was not well formed.

We are likely in a similar situation today with respect to the kinds of questions you seek answers to.  Questions such as "what caused the Big Bang" or "why is PI 3.14159...?" may not be well formed questions.    

Quote from: Testlund
It's just that right now I think that the existence of some kind of god is plausible.
Plausable?  I'll conceed that.  Probable?  No.  Supportted by evidence?  No.  Necessary to postulate in order to understand the universe?  IMHO, No.


Quote from: Testlund
You're welcome to bring some brilliance about how everything came to be which scientists agrees defies the laws of physics, because there are no physical laws before the big bang.  Something must have existed outside of physical laws and matter that triggered all this.

As above, asking "what happened before the big bang" is not a well formed question.  Time itself appears to have began with the Big Bang.  There was no before.  To refer to a before is as incorrect as to say the sun goes around the earth.  Like quantum mechanics, this is really hard for humans to grasp because we did not evolve in an environment where such understanding had any bearing on reproductive success.  We have no intuition to deal with quantum mechanics or the beginning of time or to grasp that time could have had a beginning.  The good news is that humans can learn, can shift their perspectives and learn to deal with the non-intuitive.  It is still non-intuitive that the earth rotates, but only the uneducated or deluded would hold to the position that the sun goes aroudn the earth today.  It is possible for us to overcome our intuitions through intellect and education.

Quote from: Testlund
To say it's impossible for a god to cause the existence of universe is equal bullshit to me.
Note that I have not said it is impossible.  It is possible.  It is also possible that Peter Pan really exists and you really can get to Neverland by sprinkling yourself with pixy dust and heading towards the second star to the right until morning.   An infinity of incredibly unlikly things are possible, but they are so highly unlikly and so very unsuportted by evidence as to not be worthy of discussion.   The only reason that people give a supernatural being more credability that Peter Pan is historical (and perhaps a function of evolved benifit to doing so).  People they trusted likely told them there was a god when they were little and forming those core neural formations.   In many cases society rewards and reinforces this belief and punishes those who work against it, reinfocing the meme.  Most people are plugged into the Matrix and they don't want to be unplugged and would prefer not even knowing they could be.

Quote from: Testlund
There's nothing wrong with theories as long as you don't force people to believe in them.

I force no one to beleive in anything.  But I do argue reasonably and with evidence for my position.   If someone holds a position different from mine, I would expect no less from them.  If their evidence and reasoning is superior, I will willing change my position.   Holding a position isn't free.  If your going to claim knowledge, then you must either defend it in the face of contradictory evidence or change your position.  To not do so is irrational.


Quote from: Testlund
I'm just giving you my point of view because I find this interesting to discuss.
As am I.  As do I.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 04:31:27 PM by EricL »
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Offline Moonfisher

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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2008, 06:46:19 PM »
I think the best creationism theory is the Simulation Theory, that we're just a very complex Life game... DB3K
The rest that I know of are just too far out for me