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Two arguments that give the creationists the upper hand.
Testlund:
--- Quote from: EricL ---It really does say in the Koran that your duty as a muslim is to kill non-muslims.
--- End quote ---
I haven't read the Koran so I don't know if this is what it says, but I know a lot of muslims wouldn't agree with this. If you've seen the movie about Mohammed then you know he too spoke against it. He said that the Christian religion should be respected because it is the same god, and men and women are equal and even animals should be treated with respect. I think that if religion is used right then anybody can follow it nomatter if you're a believer or not, because it just makes sense and would make anyone's life better. If something doesn't make you happy it's wrong. Most religions doesn't make peoples life happier, it mostly causes problems.
The book 'Light From The Spirit World' mension this. It speaks about unholy marriages done in churches, to take an example. Spirits divided are forced together which is against God. It mensions that when spirits have chosen each other and when they live in harmony and treat each other equal they can't be divided by death, but unequal spirits will do anything they can to get away from each other. There will be constant conflicts in the marriage. If they can't even chose their partner right and families will be created without any love in them, how can they possibly do anything else right? It's bound to be a society based on hate and conflicts.
EricL:
--- Quote from: Testlund ---I haven't read the Koran so I don't know if this is what it says, but I know a lot of muslims wouldn't agree with this.
--- End quote ---
Muslims can agree with it or not I suppose, but it's what their book says. Like Christians, I suppose most really don't have a clue what their holy books actually say and would be surprised to learn the truth.
From the Koran:
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
There are many other similar passages. Really, this is not new news...
rsucoop:
--- Quote ---Religion is universal to all tribes, cultures, and identities. At the very least, that means there's something fundamental that religion fills, the same way that language is something fundamental. Assuming all present religions represent a mutation from an original, if you take the commonalities between all religions, you arrive at what it is about religion that works and makes it valuable. I would claim those qualities are community and spirituality. Maybe a couple others. All the back story you're so concerned with doesn't really matter except as a means of heightening those virtues. Like a laser light show at a rock concert.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you, yet each culture defined religious figures in a way that was significant to their way of life. Take the Sioux for example, their gods never spoke I, because it was not in their language. Or the Japanese, their power was drawn from myths and channeled into swords for better combat, which was necessary for unifying their lands. Religion is a product of humanity; its the stoned monkey theorie. It doesn't matter what you think about 'getting high' every animal attempts it in some way or another; wether its bathing in the deserts, sex over and over again I.e. mice, or caring for a life, or consuming a mushroom just for the toxins, or injesting a chemical to feel good (more than 50% of Americans above age of 18 are on some anti-depresant). And the idea of better than now is a small form of this want. And many animals want something to happen so bad, they do not react to their instincts to make things better, this is how abusive-dominant relations are formed. Morrality is something humans thought up one day, lack of it would be considered almost inhuman in society, but its mere genetics.Sociopaths cannot understand what others feel in suffering, they lack certain genetic pieces. So morality is the same concept to many humans as is time (not saying time is not real to a scientist). Morality will happen, but no one is sure how or when it ends and begins.
Elaborte:
A poor man has no money, three kids and a wife, and no job. THere's a major depression with no jobs until the next country. Can't afford a visa or passport so he breaks the law to create an income. Is this immoral? Only from the view of the wronged. Therefore morality has to be weighed but cannot be weighed by a human, because we're imperfect in decision making.
Numsgil:
--- Quote from: EricL ---
--- Quote from: Testlund ---I haven't read the Koran so I don't know if this is what it says, but I know a lot of muslims wouldn't agree with this.
--- End quote ---
Muslims can agree with it or not I suppose, but it's what their book says. Like Christians, I suppose most really don't have a clue what their holy books actually say and would be surprised to learn the truth.
From the Koran:
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
There are many other similar passages. Really, this is not new news...
--- End quote ---
Again, those verses aren't directed towards Christians. They're directed against the rather wicked (even by modern standards) pagan cultures that surrounded the early muslims. Remember, Jews, Christians, and Muslims ostensibly believe in the same God, so to an (early) Muslim a Christian would in no way "wage war against Allah", etc. Crusades, etc. may have changed some groups' interpretations of those scriptures, but it's obvious that they are not the intention of the angel Gabriel, and thus represent a perversion.
In the Quran, Christians and Jews are jointly referred to as "those of the scriptures" or something like that.
I would also point out the strong parallels with the Old Testament. For instance, when the Israelites were conquering the land after their wanderings. God tells them to slaughter not only the men, but the women, children, and even livestock. The israelite soldiers end up keeping some of the jewelry and eat some of the meat, if I remember my story right, as their spoils of war, and God gets pissed. God really hates pagans. That should be the lesson to learn here. Anyway, these stories are part of our "peaceful" Christian mythology, and look how we turned out
Testlund:
But you also have contradictions in the bible I think. For instance the 10 commandments like 'Thy shall not kill', and Jesus who tought new ways, which could mean that the bible writers were a bit confused and missinterpreted the will of God. That's why you have two testaments. The 10 commandments is an example that everyone can follow nomatter if you're a believer or not, because it makes sense and make things better for everybody. That should be the goal for all religions. Truth is very simple and can usually be said in just one sentence, but lies are complicated and confuses people. That's why politicians like to use a lot of fancy words and talk for hours, because they try to manipulate people and hide their real intent. Believe the ones that are easy to understand instead.
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