Internet Mode Restrictions

[EricL]

When you join internet mode, you necessarily give up some control of your sim inorder to become part of the larger mega-sim.  Yes, of course we want the environments of each connected sim to be able to differ soemwhat, to be unique and configurable, but what we don't want is to allow the ability to so dramatically change the rules from sim to sim that its not a level playing field.  We want certain assumptions such as "size matters" or "ties work" to hold everywhere.

I favor putting the following restrictions in place when connected in internet mode:

All bots are virus susceptable (already the case as of 2.43u)
The Fix Bot Radii option is ignored.  Bot radii always vary acording to body, mass, etc.
The Disable Ties option is ignored.  Ties always work.


Down the road, we will be the abiltiy to have additional internet modes with specific restrictions.  If people want an intenet mode where ties are disabled or its pond mode only or every sim has uses planet eaters or uses fixed bot radii only, etc. then we will (someday) have an authoring mechanism for enforcing this.  But for now, with the one and only IM.... well, I kinda think we want some restrictions that allow for maximum phenotypic varation.  

On a related topic, I also favor the following but for different reasons discussed here.

Veggy repopulation is disabled.  Veggy reproduction would be the exclusive veggy propogation method.


Comments welcome of course.

[Peter]

The Fix Bot Radii option is ignored.  Bot radii always vary acording to body, mass, etc.
The Disable Ties option is ignored.  Ties always work.

Well I am doubting, as I don't use them but I am just against any restricting measures.

Veggy repopulation is disabled.  Veggy reproduction would be the exclusive veggy propogation method.

Ho, who veggy repop disabled where are all the veggies coming from them, what if they got extinct.

[Numsgil]

I dunno, I kind of like the idea that sims can be drastically and unfairly different.  I would suggest this: users have unlimited control to tweak whatever they want in their sim, but bots teleporting out from a sim have to obey the rules of the sim they teleport in to.

Like say a player disables viruses in their sim.  If a bot teleports in, any viruses it has won't shoot.  But if it teleports to another sim that has viruses enabled, its virus is allowed to shoot.  Likewise if a bot that mutates teleports in to a sim with the mutation multiplier set to 0, it won't mutate.  But if it teleports out to a sim with mutations enabled, it can start mutating again.

[EricL]

I like variation of environments too, but it's a question of degree.  On the one hand, I totally agree we want environmental niches, so I would not want to preclude pond mode or physics differences or having or not having shapes for example.  If a bot is lackign the DNA to be shape aware and trys to endlessly feed on them, or doesn't manage it's bouyancy and sinks or whatever, if it isn't adapted to the environment it suddenly finds itself in, it deserves what it gets.

But these environmental elements are external to the bot.  They don't fundementally disable DNA functionality like disallowing viruses or ties does nor do they change artifacts of the bot itself like fixing radii does.   Thats kind of where I draw the line I guess.  I mean, a bot should be able to count on the body size relationship being the same in all the sims and it's body management DNA working the same way in all sims don't you think?.   Some things have to be consistant.  Otherwise, it's just Alice in Wonderland.  Why bother connecting sims at all?

[Numsgil]

Something like fixed radius doesn't break all bots.  Something simple like animal minimalis doesn't really care about bot radii.  If there were a setting that really changed the simulation so much that bots in one just couldn't survive in another, then that might be something we want to limit.  But I can't think of such a setting.

I think that you do want to remove some choices from bots.  A bot that's virus immune is bad, because it gains an advantage.  However, someone might want to run a safe ground where viruses are disabled.  I just think for things like that, local environment settings should override individual bot settings.  If you manage that paradigm, you can allow pretty much anything to go.

[shvarz]

Hmm, I am guessing that majority will be against me on this, but I'd rather ask "what can we leave changeable between sims?" I'd rather have all sims (we usually have 5-8) run under almost exactly the same conditions. Things I'd let people always change are only:
- size of sims
- placing of shapes

In addition, I'd allow some gradual changes in things that can be changed gradually - physics, costs, energy, day/night cycles. But no more than a certain amount. So that for example original sim has day/night at 200, next joining sim would be allowed to go +/-20 for this value and can set it at 220 or 180. If it is set at 220, then the next joining sim will be allowed the range from 180 to 240. And so on.

[MacadamiaNuts]

No, we can save all those restrictions for the ex nihil mode. The free-for-all is just a sandbox.

[Testlund]

I agree with Eric's posts here, and here's some examples how I would like it to be:

Any bot specific settings like DNA instructions, waste tresholds, how much goes into body, eyes disabled/enabled shouldn't change when a bot teleports into a new sim.

Sim specific settings shouldn't be overridden in IM, like day/night cycles, pond mode, shapes and brownian motion should be something a bot has to live with when it enters a new sim. All cost settings shouldn't be overridden either.

I'm sure I missed a few here but maybe you get the idea.  

[Peter]

I agree with Eric's posts here, and here's some examples how I would like it to be:

Any bot specific settings like DNA instructions, waste tresholds, how much goes into body, eyes disabled/enabled shouldn't change when a bot teleports into a new sim.

Sim specific settings shouldn't be overridden in IM, like day/night cycles, pond mode, shapes and brownian motion should be something a bot has to live with when it enters a new sim. All cost settings shouldn't be overridden either.

I'm sure I missed a few here but maybe you get the idea.  

Well Eric has disabled the virus immune ability of the bots, so that wouldn't let you agree with all Eric's posts  

My point is everything is allowing, anything as long it stays fair and it is equel for all bots, So far most bots could survive in any other sim. Fixed bot radii, is that really breaking some bots apart, I wonder. Maybe mine are too simple.  

As far as I have seen most could survice in any other sim, when I was connected to atleast, is it different now, I can't check as I still can't connect.  

The standing of shvarz is also a interesting point. But I see this IM as a free for all mode, maybe later there can be some versions added where everything is desame and just one thing is different, could there be interesting how the bots evolve in high moving cost and low moving costs or something, where everything else is desame.

[Testlund]

Well Eric has disabled the virus immune ability of the bots, so that wouldn't let you agree with all Eric's posts

Actually I agree that it should be disabled in IM. No automatic immunity through a check box, rather that the bots evolve ways to protect themselves from it instead.

I mean that DNA instructions and metabolism shouldn't suddenly get changed just because a bot enters another sim. For instance; a bot that has evolved to live with a waste treshold at 500 shouldn't suddenly be able to handle waste at 10000 just because it enters another sim.

[MacadamiaNuts]

But then bots evolved at mild enviroments would have cheapo advantages against the natives of harsh sims.

[Testlund]

Yes, but that could also be an interesting challenge. Finding out how they manage in different sims. It's a matter of what would be most fun. All sims exactly the same or some variation to see what happens. I don't think the outcome is allways sure. I found most bots die when they enter my sim after my population has increased the costs, but after awhile if the costs continue to increase it reaches a point where my bots will start to get problems and die rapidly. Then all it takes is an aggressive hunter to enter and whipe them all out. A great advantage at first might change to a disadvantage later.

[Peter]

I mean that DNA instructions and metabolism shouldn't suddenly get changed just because a bot enters another sim. For instance; a bot that has evolved to live with a waste treshold at 500 shouldn't suddenly be able to handle waste at 10000 just because it enters another sim.

Well, I think it should, it should suddenly be able to or die.

My point is very simple,

I am against any restricting measures. Besides if it helps equilty like virus immunity.

Equilality for every bot, so not any chances that could favor a bot.

In this free for all IM I suggest to just let it all go, and anyone may and will do any changes. There could come another type of IM to set chances.