Author Topic: New molecules vs new properties  (Read 4726 times)

Offline shvarz

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New molecules vs new properties
« on: March 20, 2005, 07:02:52 PM »
Following my own advice, I create this topic to discuss the following possible change:

With metabolism coming, we can substitute some of the functions that we had before with actual molecules.  Here is an example:

now we have "shell", it is simply created by spending energy and protects bots from incoming shots

in new system we can have many different types of molecules that provide the same "shell" function: we can have shells made of silicone, calcium, proteins, carbs.  From carbs we can make two different kinds of shells: chitin (for insects), cellulose (for plants).

Maybe we can drop the "shell" molecule out and replace it with variety of different molecules that provide "shell"?  Some of these molecules (like cellulose) may be even digestible, but it would take a long time to digest them.  To me this sounds like a way to go, but a lot of people have bots thay rely on making shell and that would make those bots non-operational.  So I'd like to hear from them.

Another feature that can be replaced is "waste".  At this point in metabolism that I designed, the waste directly corresponds to a single molecule - urea.  But maybe later we can have different kinds of wastes.  So maybe we can also make "waste" to be a property of molecules, its harmfulness.  Some molecules will be less harmful, some more and it would be upto bots to figure out which ones it is worth to dispose off.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Zelos

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2005, 12:58:15 AM »
thats a good idea, it increase the complexity, which I like.
but I have a Q for every1 of you. why do you care if the old bots become unoperational? it will happen sooner or later so why not sooner?
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline PurpleYouko

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2005, 09:43:25 AM »
Waste will actually have to contain many different things.

We have to get rid of undigested foodstuffs too. It will be easy enough to have all the various levels of stuff in a robot, kept track of separately and then to transfer them to a poop shot which can also keep track of the various components so that they can be eventually transferred to the correct level of the e-grid.

Possibly we could allow the robot to control which items go into the waste but then again perhaps it can be automatic. A postion of everything in the stomach will become waste (urea can just be left in the stomach along with undigested material until transferred to waste). The total can be left under the name of .waste (even though it will still contain the different components) to save messing around too much with the interface.

Does that all make sense? It even seemed a little disjointed to me.

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Offline shvarz

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 10:40:40 AM »
Mmm, not clear enough :)

So say a bot ate a chunk of food full of preteins, carbs and fats.  From your explanation it seems like it would work like this: Bot absorbed proteins but not fats or carbs.  Fats and carbs are both called "waste", but they are still separate.  When bot poops, it poops "waste" - the poop shot flies out.  Then it expires over some env. grid location and in that location waste is disassembled back into fat and carbs and corresponding levels of that env. grid will be added the values of fats and carbs.  Is that right?
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline PurpleYouko

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 10:49:17 AM »
OOH! Nicely put Shvarz.  :clap:
That made a lot more sense than my garbled double talk.

That is exactly what I meant.

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Offline shvarz

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 11:07:08 AM »
OK :)

What about shell?

And also many bots now have genes like

start
50 .venom store
stop

I want to make venom, poison, shell and slime into molecules, meaning that these genes will have to be:

start
venom
make
stop

Can it be made that both notations are understood?  So that old bots would still work?  The value (50) would have to be discarded, because in metabolism the amount of things created will depend on enzyme efficiency and such...
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline PurpleYouko

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 11:55:40 AM »
In this case I don't think the old system would make sense since .strvenom is actually a label representing a memory location. Without the 50, the program would just attempt to store the last number on the stack, into .strvenom.

The memloc represented by .strvenom would have to have some value or else the routine that makes venom will not be called at all.

However I begin to see a possible way around this using your make commands in combination with the existing sysvars. Some modifications to the existing DNA files for venom using bots would be inevitable but hopefully we can keep thm minor.

a gene like

Code: [Select]
cond
*.venom 50 <
start
.strvenom make
stop
would replace
Code: [Select]
cond
*.venom 50 <
start
50 .strvenom store
stop

Updating old bots will not be too hard but the new versions of robots will not work in older sims though.

I also agree that we need to allow for multiple types of shell which can be handled in a similar way with the efficiency of the defined reaction governing the rate at which they can be built.
We need Silicate, Calcium, Chitin (this is different than Calcium), certain proteins.
Same for slime. We can probably have several different formulations of it. Maybe even custom bit pattern formulations made by different reactions.

Incidentally I don't think we should limit the new stuff to only things which nature has produced. Silicon based life forms should be possible  :lol:

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Offline Old Henk

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 12:05:15 PM »
Quote
Incidentally I don't think we should limit the new stuff to only things which nature has produced. Silicon based life forms should be possible laugh.gif

That's why I'm still pro-'cloak' :)  (1st post on this thread: Thread

Offline Numsgil

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2005, 03:58:05 AM »
The only reason to have more than one type of shell is, of course, if they have different properties.

If you're shot with a -6 shot you may only want to protect your nrg and body, and not worry about other things.  So maybe you only have shell types that protect against those things.

Offline PurpleYouko

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2005, 09:58:25 AM »
Num

Check out this earlier response of mine.

In it is outlined a proposal for a new form of shot system for -6 shots in which they become custom feeding shots.

Different shells can protect from different enzymes. Maybe we need a special enzyme to actually break through a shell chemically in order to get at the meat inside.

-1 shots are just mechanical chomping. They get a bit of everything including whatever shell is there.

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Offline Numsgil

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2005, 10:56:36 AM »
That'd be my vote.  The only problemis what kinds of shells do what?  Do we just decide arbitrarily?  I'm not against doing that, but any more specific ideas could be pretty cool.

Offline PurpleYouko

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New molecules vs new properties
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2005, 01:15:06 PM »
Well as we have already figured out, shell comes in all shapes sizes textures and whatevers, so we need to decide in exactly which form it will be found and what type of enzyme can dissolve it.

Calcium shells are prone to attack by anything acidic. Many shells of tiny creatures like Foraminafera are made up of CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate). The solubility of this stuff in sea water depends on CaCO3 concentration in the surrounding water, acidity of the water and pressure in the water. As the shells of these creatures fall to the bottom of the ocean they often dissolve before they reach it, particularly if the depth is great enough.
Basically, anything acidic will attack this type of shell. Acidic enzymes are easy enough to imagine.

Silicate shells. Much much harder to dissolve than CaCO3 shells. Also need to be very expensive to build and very heavy to boot, as a robot clad in this will be able to kick ass in a BIG way. The only thing that can really dissolve Silicates is HydroFluoric acid (HF). The reaction is actually controlled by the concentration of F- anions in the solution. This kind of reaction could theoretically be catalyzed by an enzyme with an electronegative fluorinated hydrocarbon group in combination with an acid of some kind. I don't know of any such enzyme but it should be possible.

Protein shells. Vary from Chitin (fingernails etc.) to acid resistant rubbery layers. Variouis enzymes can work on these. Finding the right one for a specific type of shell will be interesting.

 :D  PY  :D
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D