Author Topic: MB league rules  (Read 7493 times)

Offline Jez

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MB league rules
« on: June 28, 2007, 11:03:09 AM »
Peter has pointed out that there aren't any!!

I suggest -- Must have a permanent tie with bot from same species otherwise can't feed -- would be enough but perhaps you can think of some other rules that would be good to have or a better way of putting that rule or a completely different rule to have instead?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 11:04:47 AM by Jez »
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2007, 12:12:51 PM »
I would first say look at this wiki link.

wiki multibots

I gues this is a pretty good explanation about multibots, I would also suggest only being a batterybot isn't a multibot. Oh ofcource it isn't a multibot it has to get itself reproduced, a batterybot then has to reproduce itself together with the veggie  .

Furthermore schould we take for an example F1 or F2 type of rules into the league so no rules or F2 rules, I have checked some of the multibots now in the league I don't now what the rules where but they seem to use no virus's or tie-feeding, they seem to apply  to F2 rules maybe it would be better to set those rules for the multibot-league too. I hope I have helped  .

Edit
I've looked at some wrong bots, I thought they where from multibot-league but they where'nt , I just checked the league, and I've found a problem. It seems none of the league-bots are 2.43 compateble. About the virus and tiefeeding, I've run the league I've seen none of the bots using it. One(it was Vermis Ettinus) was tieing to veggies, but only if it wasn't connected with another bot with desame specie(probably a bug). Else it was just shooting them. I was getting a error when I went against Symbioticus 2.5 it was shut down imediatly. Strangely I couldn't run it on 2.37.6 at the league it also shut down.

Symbioticus 2.5 is calling itself a batterybot so I wouldn't be suprised if it where using veggies. So maybe there is a tiefeeder in there.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 01:02:03 PM by Peter »
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 02:20:16 PM »
Multibots tend to be strongly linked with the physics the program uses, which has been under constant upgrading.  I'd be surprised if any of the MB work in 2.43.

That's why I'm taking my time with the next Darwinbots version.  I'm studying how to do the physics and DNA in such a way that MBs won't be so brittle.

Offline Jez

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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 04:57:13 PM »
I don't know if I agree with that wiki link Peter;

Lichen is a combination of algae and fungi - something we might refer to as a battery bot.

Quote "no known forms of animal life have 2, 3, 4, or 5 cells. The forms of life with 6–20 cells are parasites, so they must have a complex animal as a host to provide such functions as digestion and respiration." /Quote
So why should our two or three cell bots have to have a head or tail? Or even a structure beyond a permanent tie?

I agree that a MB should be able to reproduce like for like but only in the sense that the 'spore baby' has the potential to reach its parents state.

How about; Must have a permanent tie with a bot created by itself before it can feed?

As our bots are only scraping the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the difference between unicellular and multicellular life I don't want to make it to hard for them!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:59:26 PM by Jez »
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2007, 08:39:54 AM »
Lichen, I have not heard from it earlier, but searched google I found something that I understand, now is'nt it that a cyanobacteria is a lichen too it's a photosynthesizing bacteria. What I find is a bit interesting.

Quote
Structurally, lichens are among the most bizarre of all forms of life. That's because every lichen species is actually composed of two, possibly even three,  distinct species of  organisms

The description I found about lichen, tell me if it's wrong. I often compare if with wikipedia, but it seems it's down .

Quote
Quote "no known forms of animal life have 2, 3, 4, or 5 cells. The forms of life with 6–20 cells are parasites, so they must have a complex animal as a host to provide such functions as digestion and respiration." /Quote
So why should our two or three cell bots have to have a head or tail? Or even a structure beyond a permanent tie?

Protist aren't formally animals but hey are called one cellular animals, and they are in many ways much more complicated than any multibot.

Quote
So why should our two or three cell bots have to have a head or tail? Or even a structure beyond a permanent tie?

No, the wiki doesn't say a bot has to have a head it's a suggestion of the wiki. Triangulus_P has'nt got any head, but it's a multibot. For the structure I think some kind of structure rule is needed as the wiki says I quote.
Quote
A large mass of veggies that are all tied together in an amorphous blob is not generally considered a MB.
The creator must tell what structure it bot is getting, all bots connecting to eachother, checking if they are connected, and they can then feed I don't call a multibot. A pretty simple bot is Triangulus_P(I have'nt even looked at the code, but the creator in the extbox says it's simple), something like two bots connected with a hardened tie and shooting at everything they see is a multibot, as long it can't be random 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 bots tied together and shooting at everything, that's not a multibot.


Quote
I agree that a MB should be able to reproduce like for like but only in the sense that the 'spore baby' has the potential to reach its parents state.

I, agree with that, the idea I have is a 3 cel-bot may have an interspecie of 2 cel to feed, no feeding in one cel, and at all times it most have the potential to become it final specie.


How about; Must have a permanent tie with a bot created by itself before it can feed?

I suggest at least a hardened tie, and I think there have to be more rules to have a good setting about multibots.
Edit(a permanent tie is of cource a hardened tie, forged I'd said it)


Quote
As our bots are only scraping the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the difference between unicellular and multicellular life I don't want to make it to hard for them!

I will look or it's really hard to make a multibot on a way it's towards the rules I want to have, I am just new if I can make it everybody can, then I will look furher toward what good rules are.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 08:44:29 AM by Peter »
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Offline Jez

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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2007, 11:33:38 AM »
With regards to the structure I was thinking of things like slime mould and amoebae, things that are fairly flexible in shape. (I think).
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 12:45:34 PM »
Amoebe are one cellular, but well I understand your point, althrough such multicellular who contain such conditions are rare(I think), I believe they do exist, like slime mould, well they exist. Althrough all(I think) species of slime mould are kinda one cellilar(yes kinda, they've got multiple Cell nucleus), maybe there are such strange creatures I don't now about. If there is there gotta be some structure into it, else it would just break up in different peices. I will think about this, and how this could be inplented into rules, maybe I am even going to create a multibot like it and see.
 But in the first place I would ban those bots or there is a good rule for it.

About the creation of multibots. Within 5 minutes(I've had a beginning you say it in the newbie section)I've had a multibot, althrough pretty weak and doing strange things, it works. I have looked and changed some things(this has taken some more time ), learn different things (never put spacebar behind store  )and lot of other litte mistakes I make. Now it had defeaten some of the newer multibots(compatible with 2.4.3). Well I gues it is possible to create a multibot as a newbie, I would suggest to any newbie to first make a single-bot. A multibot is'nt that difficult but there is a bit more code needed, before you even begin shooting, as a newbie I did have to search for some simple things, really simple things(good wiki  ). Now it works and can fight. Strange it's not seeing difference between friend and enemy(probably another little mistake). And it can't reproduce jet, without being split from it's other half(that's simple to implent(I gues).
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 11:03:59 PM »
It does raise some interesting ideas about how blurry the line between single and multibots are.  Ants, for instance, are sort of like a MB that doesn't have ties.  The ant colony acts as a super organism.  Slime molds are a conglomeration of smaller entities whose emergent behavior seems to cause a cohesive super organism.  But the individuals in a slime mold seem to remain mostly individuals (each capable of reproduction, feeding, etc.).

Offline Peter

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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2007, 10:00:37 AM »
I have'nt suggested any rules yet so I will begin now. I wonder how long it will take before the rulls are being broken down.

First rule (or Jez rule)  

Must have a permanent tie with a bot created by itself before it can feed?


Second rule (structure rule)  

The bot must have a stucture, created with angles, tie lengs. All craetures from that specie must have desame structure.


Third rule (reproduce)

A multibot should be able to reproduce. A newborn bot has to able to reach a multibot-situation desame as the parents or an state the parents have had too. Otherwise it cannot feed (rule 1). There has to be an ability to reproduce.


Fourd rule (number rule)

A multibot exist's of cource out of multiple cels. the number of cells has to be set. A bot is not a multibot if the number of cells is random. There may as well be multiple states of multibot a 2-cell multibot may for example become a 4-cell.




I don't want it too complicated so ant-bots (who are by itself one cellular) are restricted(becouse they are one cellular), or slime moulds-bots I wonder how that would look, well they are too blurry in the line between one and multi cellular.

Well, any suggestions.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 10:01:51 AM by Peter »
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Offline Jez

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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2007, 01:49:12 PM »
I'm ok with the first rule. (Who'd have guessed?)

I'm not ok with the second rule, I'm imagining bots adapting their final shape to deal with different opponent's strategies. Also it means a bot has to pass a particular level of programming which I'm not happy about. I'm ok with the idea of random shapes as well, in a universe where anything goes why shouldn't somebody be able to play with that idea? Also it's 'evolution', it seems wrong, to me at least, to set artificial boundaries on bots that love to break rules anyway...
I can also imagine bots that develop into, say, 3 distinct structures all specialised for different circumstances, and allowing the one best suited for that match to dominate.

The Third rule I would lose as well, although I nearly agreed. We have had bots in the other leagues that never reproduced. If it wants to become a MB and never reproduce again then why not?

The fourth rule is easily explotable; just claim your bot actually has a 1000 cells when fully grown but it rarely reaches that state or something.


Maybe I'm just being difficult, but then again the leagues often reflect the current state of DB, if a particular trait is overpowered then several bots of that type tend to climb to the top of their league. It's a check and balance system if you like; if random structure bots are better than structured bots at the moment then shouldn't we be able to see this and consider how we can balance DB better?

In an ideal world I'd make the first rule simpler but I can't think how to do that and still have a dividing line between your standard F1/F2 bots and a MB to be honest

P.S. I make that 3 3/4hrs before your new rules were challenged! LOL
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2007, 08:30:20 PM »
This is a though one.  Think of something like Light's Helios.  It's just 4 bots that form a truss and all shoot in different directions.  It's rather effective (or was anyway).  Specialization isn't something we can use then.

Structure might be a candidate, but it's too hard to define a ruleset that isn't biased against future forms of "life".

Instead of a hard and fast rule, I think we should just judge individual entries using some common sense.  As long as the bot sticks to the spirit of a MB (cooperation between joined entities), it should be passable.

In the future, when the physics can handle it, I'd say make the MB league such that .up, .dn, .dx and .sx don't work (bang efficiency = 0).  Then the only way bots could move around would be to form some sort of MB.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 08:31:14 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Jez

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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2007, 02:31:07 PM »
Would be nice to have something like that (bang efficiency = 0). In the meantime, having run a bot in the MB league today and seeing how some of the other entries work I'm going to make that first rule even simpler...

MB league rule:
Feeding genes must have *.multi 0 != as condition

The reason for asking this is simply so I don't have to study the code or watch the bot on screen when it is entered into the league.
The reason for not wanting MB's to be able to feed as single celled units is that it gives them a massive initial advantage - even if they do turn into MB's later on in life.
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Offline Peter

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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2007, 04:17:27 PM »
So all I have to do is make a hardened tie with a veggie, then I am a multibot and I can feed through the tie. I'd vote against this rule. Too simple I don think this will work.
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Offline Jez

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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2007, 05:39:28 PM »
Try it!

The MB league is quite old now, it hasn't really had many bots entered and with the current problems that v2.43 is causing tie bots it's about time we had a mass extinction event for the MB league.  

If your bot manages to get to the top of the MB league then that's just going to encourage other people to challenge you. If other people challenge you then that's likely to be using different methods. Once we have a few different methods of being a MB fighting it out in the league then we'll get a better idea of how the game is balanced with regards to multi cell bots and can make future changes with that in mind.


Botumor, the bot that stopped the bot I was running through the MB league earlier (Originaloc) didn't even seem to bother about that rule!

When there are lots of bots in the league and we can see what the balance is I'd suggest that that's the time to tighten the rules a bit more.

I think the league with the most rules at the moment is the F2 league, that has two rules... ((IIRC)No ties, no viruses).
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2007, 11:43:22 PM »
If you want to stick with the spirit of the MB league, try making a bot without .up, .dn, .sx or .dx being written to anywhere in your code.