Author Topic: Genetic Metabolism  (Read 7832 times)

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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Genetic Metabolism
« on: March 18, 2005, 06:29:22 PM »
I dunno how the actual metabolism will work; this is an idea of implementing the metabolism to a bot.

First, you have to set up to ten enzymes. These can change via mutations, and are set after the genetic code.
Each enzyme'll probably be one line.

Once the enzymes're set up, you can use them via a bunch of sysvars.
EnzA, EnzB, EnzC, etc.
The more you store in the system variable, the more it'll digest.
There could be a method to alter enzymes, but I doubt PY would accept such a system. <_< :P

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 06:39:04 PM »
You are talking only about digestion.  Well, what about making stuff?  Another ten enzymes?  Another 10 sysvars?  What about enzymes for taking up stuff from the grid?  Another ten? What if you decide you want some more reactions?  We run out of memlocs very quickly.  

Remember, we wanted to introduce metabolism to increase complexity of the system.  It has to involve a lot of molecules with a lot of different properties and with a lot of different enzymes acting upon these different molecules.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Botsareus

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Genetic Metabolism
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2005, 06:48:25 PM »
NO , WE HAVE 7 COMPLEX ENZYME MOLECULES (made up , no real chemistry here), THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR taking stuff from the e-grid , digestion , putting stuff back into the e-grid , all in one step.

Shvartz when you say " What if you decide you want some more reactions? " give an example , please.

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2005, 06:57:10 PM »
Did you see the posts with lists of reactions?  Well, these are only a tiny amount of real possible complexity.

For example, right now you have reaction
carb>nrg

Well, in my system if you want, you can simulate the whole complexity of this reaction by going
carb>A>B>C>D>E>F>G>H>I>J>K>L>nrg

Old bots would still be able to do their

carb>nrg

but new bots can go through the whole chain and get a lot more energy - this will drive evolution of very complex bots.

Also remember that if you have 10 molecules that you can digest, then someone somewhere has to make these molecules.  Which means that we need enzymes for both - digesting stuff and making stuff.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2005, 07:01:07 PM »
Quote
You are talking only about digestion.  Well, what about making stuff?  Another ten enzymes?  Another 10 sysvars?  What about enzymes for taking up stuff from the grid?  Another ten? What if you decide you want some more reactions?  We run out of memlocs very quickly.  

Remember, we wanted to introduce metabolism to increase complexity of the system.  It has to involve a lot of molecules with a lot of different properties and with a lot of different enzymes acting upon these different molecules.
I didn't think gathering stuff from the environment used enzymes. In fact, I almost mildly thought that you'd simply gather a small percentage from the environment, allowing toxic environments of a sort.
For making stuff, I guess you would need more enzymes, if you wanted to do it that way.
And, if you make the system too complicated, then mutation'll be out, and newbies won't know what to do.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of adding a metabolism at all yet.

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2005, 07:10:43 PM »
Well, you don't really need enzymes to gather stuff from environment, but you need some specialized proteins for sure.  Since most people here are not biologists, I just play along and call these proteins enzymes :)

The idea about metabolism is to make it very complicated, but hidden.  You would not know that it is so complicated untill you really dig in and learn.  But evolution will use it and suddenly you'll see appearance of specialized bots.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2005, 07:17:58 PM »
Sudden appearence? You think too highly of evolution.
As far as I know, T Preservans is a mutation.
And it's a piece of crap, really. :)
I could outprogram that even in the version it was designed for!

And I'm definately not a biologist. I think we should first understand how real cells do it. That, or just dive in, and say, "Forget how nature does it, this is just an Artificial Life Sim, not an actual perfect simulator!"
Unfortunately, we seem to be doing both, and yet neither. As far as I've seen, everyone except me wants it to be a really good simulation of life, but unfortunately, not many people seem to know much at all about how actual cells use enzymes, proteins, and all the other stuff they use.
This might be due to the fact that half of us are programmers, and the other half are biologists, or something on that level.
(I know only the basics of biology, but I'm a pretty darned good programmer. Go ahead and look at Duo Minimalis for proof; it's not as good as Deathgrip, or even DIN, but I take pride in how little energy it uses.)

I'd much prefer a simple system (well, simple in the way Assembly Language is simple) over a realistic one. :P

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2005, 07:26:17 PM »
LOL

Quote
I could outprogram that even in the version it was designed for!


Can you outprogram a simple cockroach?  I think very highly of evolution because I see extremely complex things it produced all around me.

So far evolution did not produce that many good bots because
1. It was a very simple and limited environment
2. Not too many people run it
3. Coding is very easy

Basically the fact that we don't see that many good mutants indicates that something is wrong with the sim.  and we need to fix it.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2005, 07:48:05 PM »
Not really. Cockroaches are really amazing programmers. :D

And another reason we don't get too many good mutants is 'cause they die off before they can evolve. DarwinBots isn't simple enough, it's so complicated that small advantages don't mean much.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 07:48:53 PM by Anonomous Guest Person »

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2005, 07:50:36 PM »
Quote
small advantages don't mean much


it is not a problem with complexity, it is a problem with small population size
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2005, 08:07:53 PM »
That is another factor, yes. But complexity's a problem too.
Look at the Civilization series (and it's clones.)
Two nations that're exactly the same in every possible way except that one has a wonder that doubles one of their city's research. Now, if that city just happens to be the nation's biggest research city, then that could really speed their research up.

Now, in Darwin Bots, a similar advantage would be a method of keeping Body actively fed when energy's needed, or made when there's an abundance of energy.

(All of my bots do that, ironically. Much like I prefer having a double-research wonder in Civilization games. :D )

[Edit] I forgot to make my point. :rolleyes:
Anyway, the point is that mutation has a very low chance of creating an active body-energy exchange system thing. It's possible, yes, but very improbable.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 08:10:00 PM by Anonomous Guest Person »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2005, 08:21:48 PM »
Well A.G.P. just make better robots if you want to keep them activaly fead.

Here is a try on it:

cond
300
*.nrg
>
start
100 'give all the energy to the child
.repro
store
stop

This bot will find a way to matabolize because as far as I know changes in the enzymes happen when the robot reproduces. Am I right? Shvartz?

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2005, 08:31:26 PM »
The changes in enzyme will happen during reproduction, like all mutations.

AGP: Good mutation is always rare.  But right now you can grasp the whole system and design a bot that is very good.  It is because DBs is too simple.  If we make it so complex that you can only create a bot that is so-so (humanly impossible to track all effects of code), then you'll see bots evolving that are better than designed bots.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Anonomous Guest Person

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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2005, 08:57:44 PM »
No offense, but I think the stacking system was thought of as the bonus that mutated bots have over programmed bots.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 08:58:25 PM by Anonomous Guest Person »

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2005, 03:36:30 AM »
I agree whit shvarz (what am I doing?) the more complex a system is, the better is the chance that the mutations will turn out good. after a few hundred generatios. it gives more options, a gene can mutate and be complitly different from the original one but still do the same, and then a little mutation can change it and make it better and so on.

when its about proteins take a look here
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA