League Problems

[Light]

look in leagues sub forum, under F1 & F2, they are at the bottom of the league rankings

[Jez]

And if you have any problems with the league.txt or a copy/paste of the league rankings not matching the bots in the league folder please tell me which one it didn't recognise.  

[Griz]

And if you have any problems with the league.txt or a copy/paste of the league rankings not matching the bots in the league folder please tell me which one it didn't recognise.  

~~~
ok. got 'em.
will see if I can run a few tests this weak end ...
maybe if I can limit the #of rounds, I can see if
everything loads and happens as it should.

one question tho ...
why are these F2 bots in the F1 League Table?

4 - Destinatus Preliator (F2)(PY)-16.09.04
13- Duplo Simpleboticus (F2)(Jez&PY)-01.03.04
24- Vector 1.0 (1G)(F2)(Abyaly)-04.05.06
26- Umbra Draconis (F2)(Shen)-04.08.04
28- Hunter 2.13 (F2)(PY)-pre 30.07.04
30- I. Venia (F2)(Jeremiah)-11.08.03

[Light]

Because any bot can enter the F1 league just like

1 - UNA 3.0 (1G)(Elite)-29.04.06
2 - The One (1G)(Shen)-23.04.05
9 - Spanish_Conquistador (6GVir)(Numsgil)-12.05.05

are all in the SB league

[Griz]

Because any bot can enter the F1 league just like

1 - UNA 3.0 (1G)(Elite)-29.04.06
2 - The One (1G)(Shen)-23.04.05
9 - Spanish_Conquistador (6GVir)(Numsgil)-12.05.05

are all in the SB league

I thought there were rules/restrictions in F!?
and that's why there are also F2 and SB leagues?
why are the bots designated F1 and F2 and SB?
why have different leagues then?

[Griz]

had an error

Version 2.42.9o ...
F1 league using Jez's F1 bots and Leaguetable.

all seemed to be going well ...
working out the order from #1 on down.
got to #11 Callidus, who defeated UNA 3.0 in the #10 slot ...
and as the next match began ...
Callidus now at #10 challenging #9 ...
I got this error:
'Error. Control array element '10' doesn't exist.

error sim zip attached.

[Numsgil]

F1 is a free for all league, while F2, SB, and MB are specific leagues that are supposed to be softer or easier to enter.

[Griz]

I see the new 'Round thing' Eric put in.
ok. this may indeed prove be useful ...
but it's not what I  had in mind in bringing
up the issue of being able to determine the
number of rounds in a match. [see below.]
even with this ... I have some questions about
how we might wish to choose the 'winner'.
it shouldn't necessarily be the defender ...
but the bot who has won the most rounds
by that target max round.
if you've played with leagues a bit ...
and run some bots which are not too dissimilar ...
you know that a bot can end up winning 7 out of
10 rounds and still not be considered the winner
because of the program's insistence on it somehow
not being  a statistically valid decision.
now merely awarding such a contest to the
defender, when the challenger has won 7 of
10 rounds doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
a 'tie' should go to the defender ...
but some of these matches go on and on when
there really is a clear winner because of this
statistical thing that's in there.  
this is overkill gentlemen.
imo. ime.
this isn't rocket science ...
we're  simply trying to rank a few bots, eh?
let's not make it more difficult/complex than
it needs to be.
just declare the bot with the most rounds won
to be the winner and move on.
if it's too close to tell ... then guess what? ...
it doesn't really matter, eh?
pick one and move on.

now ...
onto the questions I have been trying to raise ...
the need/desire for options I have been trying to
bring up ... the input I want to have as User.
which is:
being able to input how many rounds I, as User,
want the match to go before declaring a winner.  
as it stands, the min is 5, regardless of what one
enters.  [the original '# of rounds' box.
the 'need' to have it statistically viable overrides
any number the User enters ...
needlessly extending the match. imo. ime.
that's not what I need, or want, to have.
if I, as User, for whatever reason ...
want it to end at 3 rounds,  or whatever number,
then it should end at that number of rounds ...
the winner being the bot with the most rounds won
up to that point.
and yes ... I know enough to pick an odd number.

same with the # of cycles for a round to go before
declaring a winner.  when the # of cycles are exceeded ...
the bot with the highest population wins the round.

all I'm asking for is for the User to have these options.
and I do have my reasons for doing so ...
having to do with developing bots whose aim is
not simply to annihilate every other living thing ...
winner take all ...
but to be able to co-exist with other bots ...
to work towards developing  a multibot evolving
ecosystem ...
'cause in the real world, evolution isn't about the
individual, but a 'system' of interconnected and
interdependent entities.
but that is another discussion, eh?
so I DO have my reasons for wanting to keep
the program as versatile as possible ...
and being able to do more with leagues than
simulate WWF.
 
now if this can be implemented as an 'option' ...
one that can be enabled/disabled ...
then nothing would keep anyone from not using it ...
or inputting a number for cycles or rounds that is
high enough to never be reached ...
so it still runs/does the same as before.
just give the end User as many options as possible ...
please.

ok ...
that's my two cents.
more like a buck ninety eight I suppose.
thank you for your indulgence.

[Griz]

F1 is a free for all league, while F2, SB, and MB are specific leagues that are supposed to be softer or easier to enter.

ah.
ok.

Wondering if we shouldn't have a F1 TripleAAA league ...
to keep the number of bots at a reasonable number
of 20 or so per league ... or even with 30 ...
we could then keep some of those older pretty
good bots alive in the next level down.
one's new bot would have to work its way up ...
starting in AA, moving up to AAA ...
and then if good enough ...
into the Majors, the Big Leagues ... the F!.

[Numsgil]

That's how I'd personally prefer it myself.  But Jez has taken control of the leagues and I'll defer to however he wants the leagues set up.  The logistics aren't all that different.

[Jez]

I am listening to all of this but a little potted history of the leagues for Griz first;

Originally it was one league, then it was split into F1 and F2 because of (at the time, tie bots being fixed by PY so they worked and ) the clear superiority of tie bots. Because tie bots were so much better than other bots any other bot was allowed to challenge them.

Then the SB league was added because once upon a time they weren't as well written as they often are today but also there were lots of SB's coming out because it was a relatively new way of writing bots and so a bit of interest in doing so.

Then MB league was added, they were never really competitive enought to compete in any of the other leagues so it was used as a showcase for some of the best MB designs.

Right from the start it was decided (by me and PY I admit) that the leagues were going to be challenge leagues and any bot that couldn't beat the bot above it wouldn't get to move up a position.

Up until now, even if a bot didn't work anymore it could still remain in the position it had gained in a previous version of the leagues. Meaning non functioning bots fill some of the spaces in the leagues.
I'm intending to rerun the leagues when I have finished doing the MB and SB league downloadable files, breaking this long held tradition, so that some of the deadwood is removed from the leagues, unless there are objections.

Certainly I'm no longer going to drastically alter the leagues by making them into just one league or anything anymore and any major changes will only be made after the existing leagues are sorted out to my satisfaction.

****

Having a triple A league and so on down would, even if it is only 20 bots per league, in essence be the same as having one league the length of all those leagues added together. I would be more interested in having some extra seperate leagues, a Tie league and a Virus league were bots are more seperated in to specialist categories with the F1 still being the free for all pinnacle that all bots can enter. Perhaps even an F2minor league if you feel that league is getting to full/competitive.
Leagues aren't only there for the competition they are, after all, also there to display some of the best bots in each branch of bot design.

I am always interested to hear other peoples opinions on the leagues because it helps me shape my ideas, I have been trying to defer to the majority of opinion but there hasn't been much of it!  

More to follow...

[Jez]

Why use statistical analysis to decide match winners?
Why not use a set amount of rounds per match or max amount of cycles or allow a bot that ties with the bot above it to move up and challenge the next bot?

It used to be the best of five matches once upon a time. PY would run the match once and the results determined whether the bot won or lost. This can make it all a bit of a lottery though, two fairly equal bots (defender A and challenger  could win or lose their place in the league from a few minutes of intense combat. It might be that bot B could win 3 of every 5 matches in the long run but that also means bot A has a chance of winning the first 4 rounds in a match.
What the statistical analysis is there for is removing this element of chance. If you had entered bot B and the last 5 (max 5 round) matches you had run had all shown your bot winning 3-2 or 4-1 wouldn't you be a bit upset if that once only 'official' league match showed bot A beating bot B 3-2 and therefore retaining its position in the league? (Specially when you know that your bot, bot B would have gone on after beating bot A to take no1 position in the league...)
(It has happened to me before, that's why you can blame me for that feature being there.   )

Having a max amount of cycles is slightly different; there are some bots, particuarly the "grow big reproduce slow" bots, that need a long period to actually beat a "quick repro win by numbers" bot. Atrium Venator is a good example of this, albeit it doesn't reproduce, but if it did then it would probably need a long time to win a match. Instead of having a max amount of cycles I have asked for an upkeep cost per turn and a max waste to be added to the league settings. This will hopefully do the same sort of thing but in a less obvious and less arbitary way.

The reason bots that draw with another bot don't get to advance in the league is that they are challenge leagues, a new bot has the advantage, it can study its opponent and exploit any weakness, plus you can always ask on the forum for tips on how to beat it.
Anyway, when the 'official' league match is run it will go on ad infinitum until somebody wins.

Overall I think what would suit you is a way to run the leagues a bit quicker, a 'non official' league testing method that means you don't have to leave your pc running for hours to get a result.
The 'official' league, when it is run, is designed to be as accurate as it can be in obtainig a result that is fair to all types of bots.

And more...

[Jez]

I think the crash may have been caused by Spanish Conquistador having a _ between the names in the list you copied. I have changed that now but would suggest you download the league.txt in future rather than copy/paste list. I can check league.txt but because of all the links in the list you copied (I can't just paste league.txt into it) there may be one or two minor errors when you just copy it.

You can test this by just trying to enter Spanish Conquistador from your F1 league folder into the F1 league, if it instantly tells you you have a problem than that is what it was caused by.

Sorry about that.  

[Griz]

Having a triple A league and so on down would, even if it is only 20 bots per league, in essence be the same as having one league the length of all those leagues added together.

well ... yes, once the league has been 'set up' ...
a challenger would then have to work its way up ...
a simple bubble sort, eh?

the problem with having a large league ...
comes to light when one then, for whatever reason ...
needs to rerun the league, or, as you are doing ...
weed out the dead wood.
then it becomes a marathon thing which can take
days to complete ... esp if some of those bots are
close and the program keeps extending the rounds.

so yes ...
I see what you are saying ...
just looking for a way to more quickly setup and
establish the initial pecking order, if you will.

btw ... as listed in F1 ...
some of those in the top positions most certainly
are displaced by some lower in the ranks ...
Animal Supremous, or whatever it's named ...
worked it's way all the way to the top ...
and of course UMA 3.0 doesn't stay at #2 long.
so in order for me to run leagues ...
I'm finding I can't just do it as a challenge ...
but have to rerun it all ...
and so far I haven't been able to ...
having a crash at #10.

in the meantime, I may just split them up into
F1, F1A, F1B ... 10 per league ...
to establish some realistic pecking order ...
and then combine them farther down the road.

[Griz]

Overall I think what would suit you is a way to run the leagues a bit quicker, a 'non official' league testing method that means you don't have to leave your pc running for hours to get a result.
The 'official' league, when it is run, is designed to be as accurate as it can be in obtainig a result that is fair to all types of bots.

And more...

of course ...
I'm not suggesting anything be abandoned
for the Official Leagues!!!!!!!!!
all I want is, as the User ...
to have these options when I want to run
something other than the official league.
that is all I'm asking.

please, please, please ...
allow the User as many options as possible ...
so some of us can explore some ideas other
than developing a bot that isn't considered a
winner unless it wipes out all other bots as
quickly as possible.
I have not been ...
am not now ...
and will never be ...
interested in that approach to an evosim ...
and in fact, think continuing to move in that
direction is a big mistake.
imo, ime ...
DB shouldn't be about individual bots ...
but about developing a system made up of
an environment  populated with bots which
are geared to [and which evolve towards] ...
being able to survive and coexist with other bots ...
to evolve complex relationships with one another
and their environment ...
allowing them to form that web of life that
gets it's strength from diversity and the
interdependence/interconnectedness of the
beings which inhabit it.
you know ... kinda like it is in the real world.
that's what I'm interested in exploring and
emulating.

and so ...
I would like, and deeply appreciate ...
as a User ... having as many options as possible
to run unofficial leagues and DB, towards that end.
I don't think that is asking too much ...
and I wouldn't think implimenting these options
in leagues, which still allows folks to run things 'Officially' ...
as being that difficult.

if I had access to the VB code with the latest changes ...
I might even be able to discover how to alter it to meet
my needs, if no one else is interested in having these
options.

maybe with the official 2.43 ...
I will have that option.