Code center > Bugs and fixes
League Problems
Numsgil:
n(n+1) / 2 approaches n^2 as n gets very large (actually, it approaches 1/2 n^2, but big O ignores those coefficients), which is the point I was making. You're going to be running alot of rounds, no matter how you slice it. Suppose you run 1000 bots in a round robin tournament. That's going to be something on the order of half a million matches. That's a lot of matches.
It's okay that initial order matters in the ranking, because we have a prechosen method for the preranking: age. Initial ranking is always going to matter, there's no getting around that in a ladder. But using seniority for the initial ranking makes the most sense, for reasons Jez outlined above. In your own personal ladder, feel free to chose whatever initial ordering you like. Initial ordering does matter, but so long as your choice is arbitrary most of the league is going to be ordered correctly.
The idea isn't that the ladder is a perfect representation of the strength of the bots. The ladder is simply a quick way to relatively sort them. That's why they're used in sports, people aren't patient.
I'll post in suggestions forum with my stats findings.
Jez:
I’m not sure exactly what good work Eric has done for this last buddy drop, I’ve been running it under VB in case of crashes but it seems to run faster than before.
The current standing, which I think has been affected by the latest changes, is as follows:[1]Din
[2]Destinatus P
[3]The One
[4]Dominator I
[5]Darth S
[6]Spanish C (103 wins)
[7]Animal S (122 wins)
[8]Carnatus Orbis
[9]Kyushu
[10]Una 3.0[/li]I don’t remember what the formula was that is used to decide the winner now, annoying sometimes when I want to work out how many more rounds minimum it might take for a bot to win a match, it will be interesting to see Nums’ report on probability models to use in the league.
Eric, should you ever have time to implement a better way of running the league, you have some good ideas about how it could be done, then you have my support and I would be happy to help in any way I can.
A multi enviromental test via internet linked pc’s using screensavers etc really would be the bees’ knees of competition!
Griz, I am not questioning your mathematical abilities, you far exceed my abilities in that, or probably any other, field.
It is the premise that the start order is arbitary that I disagree with, this isn’t a reformation of the league from scratch, would need to run all existing bots if that were the case; it is a shake up of the existing placement of the bots in the league, something that is far from arbitary.
The comment I made about a RR being ‘a manually intensive, long drawn out way to decide the results’ is based on the fact that there is no way for the program to do it automatically at the moment and that AFAIK a RR where every bot fights every other bot is undoubtedly going to take longer than a challenge match where bots don’t always compete against all the other bots.
I had no intention of ‘shooting the messenger’ you are undoubtedly correct in what you say, I am arguing over the premise that the starting order is arbitary.
I don’t see why, if the starting order is considered valid and the method of competition (challenge) is valid then the results don’t hold some statistical relevance.
(contest results are now Spanish C 110 – Animal S 130)
Griz:
--- Quote from: Jez ---I’m not sure exactly what good work Eric has done for this last buddy drop, I’ve been running it under VB in case of crashes but it seems to run faster than before.
The current standing, which I think has been affected by the latest changes, is as follows:[1]Din
[2]Destinatus P
[3]The One
[4]Dominator I
[5]Darth S
[6]Spanish C (103 wins)
[7]Animal S (122 wins)
[8]Carnatus Orbis
[9]Kyushu
[10]Una 3.0[/li]
--- End quote ---
[/quote]
well ... this will be drastically altered!
--- Quote ---Griz, I am not questioning your mathematical abilities, you far exceed my abilities in that, or probably any other, field.
It is the premise that the start order is arbitary that I disagree with, this isn’t a reformation of the league from scratch, would need to run all existing bots if that were the case; it is a shake up of the existing placement of the bots in the league, something that is far from arbitary.
--- End quote ---
understood. if that were indeed the case.
I don't think in this case, it is.
an example:
the list you provide above going to be anywhere
near what the ranking will end up being.
Din is going to drop to around #5 ...
Dominator Invincibalis to around 8th ...
Carnatus Orbis out of the top 10 ...
Kyushu down to around 20 ... etc.
and this isn't taking into consideration
that there are other bots farther down
the line that will still come up and take
them down a bit further.
so while this may have been a valid ranking at one time ...
from the days of 2.37???? or did someone rerun leagues
since 2.4X? ...
I don't know that it still is.
well ...
having run a bunch of contests ... I know it isn't.
anyway ... bots behave much differently now, eh?
the physics of the program have been altered ...
and costs and lots of stuff ...
so you are going to run into the very problem I've been
attempting to draw attention to ...
I've already run into them ... and showed you one example
being that of D Scarab 3 being prevented from moving up.
[which would have happened to him in a challenge as well, btw]
in fact, even as we speak, I have him challenging the 6 bot
mini league ranked just ahead of him ... #7-#12
and so far he as taken out both Carnatus Orbis & Duplo Simpleboticus
and is working now on James 4 ...
8 rankings above were the league stuck him down at #18.
so he's still on his way up.
--- Quote ---The comment I made about a RR being ‘a manually intensive, long drawn out way to decide the results’ is based on the fact that there is no way for the program to do it automatically at the moment and that AFAIK a RR where every bot fights every other bot is undoubtedly going to take longer than a challenge match where bots don’t always compete against all the other bots.
--- End quote ---
right. having to manually doing this is a big pain.
that's why I'm suggesting we consider making some changes.
as far as challenge matches go ...
that is a slightly different animal ... but I have similar problems with it.
as far as rerunning/establishing a league ... as it is now ...
it won't usually take as long ... but there is no guarantee of that.
it is possible they would have to do as many .... possible, if not probable.
however, just as probable as it only doing the minimum number.
I would expect they would 'average' about half ... probability being what it is.
so you do a trade off ...
trading speed for accuracy ...
it's a balancing act ...
which I don't have a problem with, you do what you have to ...
but lets not pretend it is then as correct as it could be ...
or can justify using all that time for statistical calculation
re # of rounds required to win ...
because the error introduced in the initial placement ...
is far greater than that, and will nullify all those great
efforts at being precise.
hmmmmmm ....
looking for another analogy.
ok ... like spending hours/days carefully stacking up 100,000 dominoes to
make a really cool display when you finally stand back and tip that first one ...
all that time there being a great dane running around in the room.
~~~
--- Quote ---I had no intention of ‘shooting the messenger’ you are undoubtedly correct in what you say, I am arguing over the premise that the starting order is arbitary.
I don’t see why, if the starting order is considered valid and the method of competition (challenge) is valid then the results don’t hold some statistical relevance.
--- End quote ---
right. and I am saying they, and your premise, are not valid.
so I guess we can agree we disagree.
--- Quote ---(contest results are now Spanish C 110 – Animal S 130)
--- End quote ---
let me know what they are up to in another week. lol
see ... here we are at the place I don't get ...
it is a statistical draw!!!!
why keep screwing around with it?
why not give it to Animal S ... he's got more rounds ...
and move on.
if you are concerned about the time to run leagues ...
I suggest you take a look at what is consuming much
of that time ... and determine if it is worth it or not.
I don't happen to think it is ... but ...
whatever.
hey ...
made a mistake before for # of matches required
for all bots to go up against each other ...
had a + there instead of a -
it isn't n(n+1)/2 but n(n-1)/2
3 bots = 3 matches: ie A-B, A-C, B-C
6 bots = 15
8 bots = 28
10 bots = 45
30 bots = 435
I'm tellin' ya ... those 8 bot sub-leagues are looking
better to me all the time.
EricL:
--- Quote from: Jez ---I’m not sure exactly what good work Eric has done for this last buddy drop, I’ve been running it under VB in case of crashes but it seems to run faster than before.
--- End quote ---
I did make one change in 2.42.9s that probably helps perfromance of leagues in how unique IDs are assigned to bots. If you look in the properties dialog of a bot, there are two numbers there. One is the "Robot ID" which the unique number of the bot in the sim at the momnet. It's basically the index the bot is using in the internal bot array. That is, no other extant bot has that number currently, but numbers get re-used as bots die. The second "Unique Robot ID" is unique for the life of the sim. No other bot in that sim will ever have that number again. These unique numbers are used for ancestor trees, teleporters and other places where having unique bot IDs is required.
The old code used a really computentional intensive way of assigning these unique IDs. I changed it to simply use a monotomicaly increasing counter that gets saved in sim files.
--- Quote from: Jez ---Eric, should you ever have time to implement a better way of running the league, you have some good ideas about how it could be done, then you have my support and I would be happy to help in any way I can.
A multi enviromental test via internet linked pc’s using screensavers etc really would be the bees’ knees of competition!
--- End quote ---
Thanks. Anything like what I suggest would be in addition to the current league functionality. Terrarium had this and it was super cool.
Griz:
can't seem to reply/post to Num's stat thread ...
so will put it here.
Moved to League stats tests ~~~Jez
~~~
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