Code center > Bugs and fixes
League Problems
Griz:
--- Quote ---I have seen rounds go down to just one bot left v lots of others, on both sides, several times in just one round before, I don't know how you define 'an obvious rout'. To me it is when one bot doesn't work. biggrin.gif
--- End quote ---
no ... I'm talking about 200 to 3 or 4, 3 rounds in a row ...
so I had no problem giving them the next two rounds.
I did say 'obvious' didn't I?
anyway ... I didn't do that with Spainish C. Animal S or Darth Shimazu ...
they worked it out on their own.
--- Quote ---I would suggest 4 or 5 bots without the win button and IME that can still take over 24hrs. (Hopefully not with the bots we choose though!)
Calllidus v The One v Spanish C v Animal S v DIN?
--- End quote ---
well ... would like to have Darth Shimazu in there ... seeing as he prevailed over both Spanish and Animal.
so I'd do six ... the above including Darth.
now the question is ... how to initially rank them so that they all get a shot?
as I said, sometimes A can beat B, B prevail over C and C kick A's butt ...
esp when they are evenly matched, such as these top six may be.
so if Callidus never gets to go up against Spanish C ... ??? who can say?
what I'd really like to do is use F1 conditions ...
but run contests between each pair of the 6 ...
just to see who comes up with the best W-L record
having taken everybody on ...
seeing they don't all get to do that in leagues.
maybe something I'll do later ...
if we come up with standing discrepancies.
anyway ... what else can we do but experiment?
I still don't like leaving out Dominator Invincibalis and Destinatus Preliator ...
as they finished ahead of Darth, Spanish C and Animal S for me but ...
hey ... got to start somewhere.
make the starting list like you want it to be ...
the 5 or 6 ...
and let me know what it is ...
so we can all start the same place.
you know ... if we do end up with different results ...
then setting up and then saving a sim file to share
so we know all the variables/parameters are the same ...
might not be a bad idea.
we might need to have an Official League start.sim.
otay den ...
Jez:
I'm talking about bots coming back from the position of 100+ to 1, chance is a fickle mistress. 12 hr rounds with both bots reaching this position are not unknown.
The reason I hadn't included some of PY's bots; Dominator and Destinatus are they are a couple of bots that I have noticed having such extended rounds. Darth is also one I think I remember for this which is why I didn't include.
A round robin then? Happy to do that as we can compare the results in stages, I suggest:[1]Callidus
[2]The One
[3]Spanish C
[4]Animal S
[5]Din
[6]Darth[/li]The first one of us to complete the first round (Callidus v the rest) posts results in a new post called Round Robin in a bit of the forum that they see fit. (inc rules and reason just to define post if that is alright with you) (Using DB .9r)
The official league.sim you suggest should be set by default by using the F1 conditions. If we find it is not then that can be changed. This is why I asked for all the league conditions to be set automatically. I have no doubt Eric would be happy to add any conditions that are missing.
Seeing as the fireworks have just gone off signaling midnight. Happy New Year!!
Edit
I will start this now, np if you wish to change as I can restart. RR's may cause time problems running overnight but I think this is a good approach.
Edit
Callidus won 5/0 v allcomers, I'll try it under VB conditions (tomorrow) to make sure before making RR post. Thanks for questioning this Griz, the only other reason I can think of is earlier versions of DB or that I was hallucinating...
(never trust the hippy/punk/person outside your social construct!)
Griz:
--- Quote ---I'm talking about bots coming back from the position of 100+ to 1, chance is a fickle mistress. 12 hr rounds with both bots reaching this position are not unknown. dry.gif
--- End quote ---
I understand that ...
what I am saying is ... when it's that damn close ...
it's a waste of time to go on and on and on and then declare that one
of them is superior to the other.
flip a coin.
there are too many other variables in DB that affect the outcome
when bots are that close.
going to all the trouble of using this 'statistically correct' method
in these cases is overkill.
this ain't rocket science ...
we're just playing some bots against one another ...
with variable errors far in excess of what these statistical calculations
are trying to see.
it's like having a bathroom scale read your weight to 8 decimal places!
who cares if I weigh 223.57834598?
hey! I lost 0.00000253 lbs this week!!!!
in the below ...
I did indeed 'interfere' in two cases ...
as it's pretty much a toss up ...
and if it goes to 40 rounds ... I'm going to declare a winner ...
because it really doesn't matter.
ok ... did some playing around with leagues ...
this before I came here and read your post ...
but I did in fact use those 6 bots.
check it out.
ver 2.42.9r compiled
F1 League conditions
6 bots ...
initial ranking:
btw ...
this intial positioning can make a big difference as well
for the ranking ... as some bots won't ever take on others.
more on that below ... with the round robin I already did.
ok ... started like so:
1 - Callidus
2 - The One
3 - DIN
4 - Darth Shimazu
5 - Spanish Conquistador
6 - Animal Supremus
results:
1 - Callidus
2 - Spanish Conquistador
3 - Animal Supremus
4 - The One
5 - DIN
6 - Darth Shimazu
two contests were fairly long ...
Darth vs Spanish C went 17 to 22 ...
39 rounds before I gave it to Spanish C
The One vs Spanish C went 19 to 19 ...
before I gave it to Spanish C ...
just so he would have a chance to go up against Callidus ...
Callidus already having defeated The One.
well ... Callidus kicked Spanish C's butt easily.
btw ... I later ran longer matches between these opponents ...
and determined that it's pretty much a 50/50 ...
and which bot wins is pretty random ...
just depends on who starts where and whatever seed is used.
I don't think running them thru the league one time can determine
which should be ranked above which ...
"on any given sunday", eh?
now ...
there were a number of bots that didn't get a chance to
go up against one another so I switched League off ...
and still using the F1 conditions, not altering anything ...
ran those contests using just two bots in the normal way ...
first ensuring the mutations were disabled.
results over all, from the league ...
and with the additional contests I staged ...
each bot going up against every other bot:
Callidus ......................... 5 wins, 0 losses
Spanish Conquistador ...... 4 wins, 1 loss
The One ......................... 3 winds, 2 losses
Animal Supremus ............ 2 wins, 3 losses
DIN ................................ 1 win, 4 losses
Darth Shimazu ............... 0 wins, 5 losses.
notice, The One and Animal Supremus swapped #3 and #4 spots ...
even tho Animal beat The One, one on one.
anyway ... this is easy to do if you just want to check out how two
bots go up against one another without having to run the whole
league [good luck with that anyway]
now I noticed in General Settings ...
the Veggie population controls are set to:
Max Pop - 25, Threshold - 10, Veggies/Pop Event - 10, Cooldown -1
now this population control thing has always bugged me ...
the veggie pop here able to up to 50 if conditions are right.
what I eventually came up with was the following settings ...
Max Pop - 25, Threshold - 24, Veggies/Pop Event - 1, Cooldown -1
which, perhaps after an intitial surge early on
seems to keep the population much closer to the target 25 ...
ie ... under the user's control.
I'm not certain ... but it may also affect how tightly the veggies
'group' together. you'll have to experiment and see for yourself ...
but if so, this also may effect some bots more than others ...
depending upon their 'search patterns'.
hey!
it's 2007 and I didn't even know it!
well ... not on the west coast yet ...
it's all make believe anyway you know ...
this arbitrary numbering thing and pretending
there are time zones and all.
I mean ...
one could say it's not really a new year until feb 18th ...
and then it's the year 4704. lol
it's all relative, dudes!
have a happy one ...
wherever, whenever.
Griz:
--- Quote ---The official league.sim you suggest should be set by default by using the F1 conditions. If we find it is not then that can be changed. This is why I asked for all the league conditions to be set automatically. I have no doubt Eric would be happy to add any conditions that are missing.
--- End quote ---
yes ...
I'm not certain all parameters everywhere are set ...
certainly the league ones ...
but many new things have been added in lots of places ...
so who knows for sure?
it's going to take going thru all the pages, checking everything after loading some sim ...
then clicking on F1 conditions in League and going back to see if there are some which
are not addressed.
eric or someone probably has a list of all variables/parameters, right?
I mean ...
even such a thing as using a different seed could affect the outcome
of a match between two closely matched bots, eh?
maybe we need to use a specific seed when running an 'Official' League?
ok ...
talk to you all next year
Jez:
--- Quote from: Griz ---going to all the trouble of using this 'statistically correct' method
in these cases is overkill.
this ain't rocket science ...
--- End quote ---
I learnt about this statistical analysis in biology, it's a means to see whether the results mean somethng or you could just have got the same results by tossing a coin, it's also using the lower end, or less exact method of doing it.
--- Quote ---btw ... I later ran longer matches between these opponents ...
and determined that it's pretty much a 50/50 ...
and which bot wins is pretty random ...
--- End quote ---
Which two bots? If you are talking Callidus and Spanish C then so far the score is 20/0 to Callidus in the matches I have run. If you are talking about these two and the difference is you used an F1 rerun instead of just F1 conditions (as I am using) or something that would be interesting.
As you have found a couple of bots changing position in a F1 rerun v F1 conditions only; this makes me more curious but as you used the win button I am not sure.
Veggie pop is an old thing, the only change I made to that was increasing the overall number of veg on screen slightly to make up for the bots size difference compared to the old sim.
I did suggest something similar to your idea to PY once, the discussion resulted in no change, I guess it's a sort of flux within the system.
Seeing as the league is essentially traditional, though I have made changes, you would need to come up with reasons why it is an advantage to have less change with the veg population.
I'll try to remember to try out your suggested settings at some point in the future to see what difference it makes though. If it results in the veg tending towards tighter grouping then that is not a good thing.
--- Quote ---hey!
it's 2007 and I didn't even know it!
well ... not on the west coast yet ...
--- End quote ---
Already 7hrs behind my celebration.
I guess this arbitary definintion is useful for synchronicity. Would be very confusing if everyone set the clocks based on the time the sun rose outside their house! lol
--- Quote ---Eric or someone probably has a list of all variables/parameters, right?
--- End quote ---
I've also seen them all listed in the source code. Was a whole part just dedicated to them.
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