League Problems

[Griz]

I have seen rounds go down to just one bot left v lots of others, on both sides, several times in just one round before, I don't know how you define 'an obvious rout'. To me it is when one bot doesn't work. biggrin.gif

no ... I'm talking about 200 to 3 or 4, 3 rounds in a row ...
so I had no problem giving them the next two rounds.
I did say 'obvious' didn't I?
anyway ... I didn't do that with Spainish C. Animal S or Darth Shimazu  ...
they worked it out on their own.

I would suggest 4 or 5 bots without the win button and IME that can still take over 24hrs. (Hopefully not with the bots we choose though!)
Calllidus v The One v Spanish C v Animal S v DIN?

well ... would like to have Darth Shimazu in there ... seeing as he prevailed over both Spanish and Animal.
so I'd do six ... the above including Darth.
now the question is ... how to initially rank them so that they all get a shot?
as I said, sometimes A can beat B, B prevail over C and C kick A's butt ...
esp when they are evenly matched, such as these top six may be.
so if Callidus never gets to go up against Spanish C ... who can say?

what I'd really like to do is use F1 conditions ...
but run contests between each pair of the 6 ...
just to see who comes up with the best W-L record
having taken everybody on ...
seeing they don't all get to do that in leagues.
maybe something I'll do later ...
if we come up with standing discrepancies.
 
anyway ... what else can we do but experiment?
 
I still don't like leaving out Dominator Invincibalis and Destinatus Preliator ...
as they finished ahead of Darth, Spanish C and Animal S for me but ...
hey ... got to start somewhere.

make the starting list like you want it to be ...
the 5 or 6 ...
and let me know what it is ...
so we can all start the same place.

you know ... if we do end up with different results ...
then setting up and then saving a sim file to share
so we know all the variables/parameters are the same ...
might not be a bad idea.
we might need to have an Official League start.sim.
 
otay den ...

[Jez]

I'm talking about bots coming back from the position of 100+ to 1, chance is a fickle mistress. 12 hr rounds with both bots reaching this position are not unknown.  

The reason I hadn't included some of PY's bots; Dominator and Destinatus are they are a couple of bots that I have noticed having such extended rounds. Darth is also one I think I remember for this which is why I didn't include.

A round robin then? Happy to do that as we can compare the results in stages, I suggest:

[1]Callidus
[2]The One
[3]Spanish C
[4]Animal S
[5]Din
[6]Darth[/li]

The first one of us to complete the first round (Callidus v the rest) posts results in a new post called Round Robin in a bit of the forum that they see fit. (inc rules and reason just to define post if that is alright with you) (Using DB .9r)

The official league.sim you suggest should be set by default by using the F1 conditions. If we find it is not then that can be changed. This is why I asked for all the league conditions to be set automatically. I have no doubt Eric would be happy to add any conditions that are missing.

Seeing as the fireworks have just gone off signaling midnight. Happy New Year!!  

Edit

I will start this now, np if you wish to change as I can restart. RR's may cause time problems running overnight but I think this is a good approach.

Edit

Callidus won 5/0 v allcomers, I'll try it under VB conditions (tomorrow) to make sure before making RR post. Thanks for questioning this Griz, the only other reason I can think of is earlier versions of DB or that I was hallucinating...
(never trust the hippy/punk/person outside your social construct!)

[Griz]

I'm talking about bots coming back from the position of 100+ to 1, chance is a fickle mistress. 12 hr rounds with both bots reaching this position are not unknown. dry.gif

I understand that ...
what I am saying is ... when it's that damn close ...
it's a waste of time to go on and on and on and then declare that one
of them is superior to the other.
flip a coin.
there are too many other variables in DB that affect the outcome
when bots are that close.
going to all the trouble of using this 'statistically correct' method
in these cases is overkill.
this ain't rocket science ...
we're just playing some bots against one another ...
with variable errors far in excess of what these statistical calculations
are trying to see.
it's like having a bathroom scale read your weight to 8 decimal places!
who cares if I weigh 223.57834598?
hey! I lost 0.00000253 lbs this week!!!!

in the below ...
I did indeed 'interfere' in two cases ...
as it's pretty much a toss up ...
and if it goes to 40 rounds ... I'm going to declare a winner ...
because it really doesn't matter.

ok ... did some playing around with leagues ...
this before I came here and read your post ...
but I did in fact use those 6 bots.
check it out.

ver 2.42.9r compiled
F1 League conditions

6 bots ...
initial ranking:

btw ...
this intial positioning can make a big difference as well
for the ranking ... as some bots won't ever take on others.
more on that below ... with the round robin I already did.

ok ... started like so:
1 - Callidus  
2 - The One  
3 - DIN  
4 - Darth Shimazu  
5 - Spanish Conquistador  
6 - Animal Supremus  

results:
1 - Callidus
2 - Spanish Conquistador
3 - Animal Supremus  
4 - The One  
5 - DIN
6 - Darth Shimazu  

two contests were fairly long ...
Darth vs Spanish C went 17 to 22 ...
39 rounds before I gave it to Spanish C

The One vs Spanish C went  19 to 19 ...
before I gave it to Spanish C ...
just so he would have a chance to go up against Callidus ...
Callidus already having defeated The One.
well ... Callidus kicked Spanish C's butt easily.

btw ... I later ran longer matches between these opponents ...
and determined that it's pretty much a 50/50 ...
and which bot wins is pretty random ...
just depends on who starts where and whatever seed is used.
I don't think running them thru the league one time can determine
which should be ranked above which ...
"on any given sunday", eh?

now ...
there were a number of bots that didn't get a chance to
go up against one another so I switched League off ...
and still using the F1 conditions, not altering anything ...
ran those contests using just two bots in the normal way ...
first ensuring the mutations were disabled.

results over all, from the league ...
and with the additional contests I staged ...
each bot going up against every other bot:

Callidus  ......................... 5 wins, 0 losses
Spanish Conquistador ...... 4 wins, 1 loss
The One ......................... 3 winds, 2 losses
Animal Supremus ............ 2 wins, 3 losses  
DIN ................................ 1 win, 4 losses
Darth Shimazu ...............  0 wins, 5 losses.

notice, The One and Animal Supremus swapped #3 and #4 spots ...
even tho Animal beat The One, one on one.
anyway ... this is easy to do if you just want to check out how two
bots go up against one another without having to run the whole
league [good luck with that anyway]

now I noticed in General Settings ...
the Veggie population controls are set to:
Max Pop - 25, Threshold - 10, Veggies/Pop Event - 10, Cooldown -1

now this population control thing has always bugged me ...
the veggie pop here able to up to 50 if conditions are right.
what I eventually came up with was the following settings ...
Max Pop - 25, Threshold - 24, Veggies/Pop Event - 1, Cooldown -1
which, perhaps after an intitial surge early on
seems to keep the population much closer to the target 25 ...
ie ... under the user's control.
I'm not certain ... but it may also affect how tightly the veggies
'group' together. you'll have to experiment and see for yourself ...
but if so, this also may effect some bots more than others ...
depending upon their 'search patterns'.

hey!
it's 2007 and I didn't even know it!
well ... not on the west coast yet ...
it's all make believe anyway you know ...
this arbitrary numbering thing and pretending
there are time zones and all.
I mean ...
one could say it's not really a new year until feb 18th ...
and then it's the year 4704.  lol
it's all relative, dudes!
have a happy one ...
wherever, whenever.

[Griz]

The official league.sim you suggest should be set by default by using the F1 conditions. If we find it is not then that can be changed. This is why I asked for all the league conditions to be set automatically. I have no doubt Eric would be happy to add any conditions that are missing.

yes ...
I'm not certain all parameters everywhere are set ...
certainly the league ones ...
but many new things have been added in lots of places ...
so who knows for sure?
it's going to take going thru all the pages, checking everything after loading some sim ...
then clicking on F1 conditions in League and going back to see if there are some which
are not addressed.
eric or someone probably has a list of all variables/parameters, right?

I mean ...
even such a thing as using a different seed could affect the outcome
of a match between two closely matched bots, eh?
maybe we need to use a specific seed when running an 'Official' League?

ok ...
talk to you all next year

[Jez]

going to all the trouble of using this 'statistically correct' method
in these cases is overkill.
this ain't rocket science ...

I learnt about this statistical analysis in biology, it's a means to see whether the results mean somethng or you could just have got the same results by tossing a coin, it's also using the lower end, or less exact method of doing it.

btw ... I later ran longer matches between these opponents ...
and determined that it's pretty much a 50/50 ...
and which bot wins is pretty random ...

Which two bots? If you are talking Callidus and Spanish C then so far the score is 20/0 to Callidus in the matches I have run. If you are talking about these two and the difference is you used an F1 rerun instead of just F1 conditions (as I am using) or something that would be interesting.

As you have found a couple of bots changing position in a F1 rerun v F1 conditions only; this makes me more curious but as you used the win button I am not sure.

Veggie pop is an old thing, the only change I made to that was increasing the overall number of veg on screen slightly to make up for the bots size difference compared to the old sim.
I did suggest something similar to your idea to PY once, the discussion resulted in no change, I guess it's a sort of flux within the system.
Seeing as the league is essentially traditional, though I have made changes, you would need to come up with reasons why it is an advantage to have less change with the veg population.
I'll try to remember to try out your suggested settings at some point in the future to see what difference it makes though. If it results in the veg tending towards tighter grouping then that is not a good thing.

hey!
it's 2007 and I didn't even know it!
well ... not on the west coast yet ...

Already 7hrs behind my celebration.
I guess this arbitary definintion is useful for synchronicity. Would be very confusing if everyone set the clocks based on the time the sun rose outside their house! lol

Eric or someone probably has a list of all variables/parameters, right?

I've also seen them all listed in the source code. Was a whole part just dedicated to them.

[Griz]

Which two bots? If you are talking Callidus and Spanish C then so far the score is 20/0 to Callidus in the matches I have run. If you are talking about these two and the difference is you used an F1 rerun instead of just F1 conditions (as I am using) or something that would be interesting.

no ... Darth and Spanish C ... virtually tied after 39 matches ...
and then again, The One and Spanish C ... again, 19 to 19.
statistical analysis can also be used to determine that there is little, if any difference ...
and as far as I'm concerned, that's what it shows me with ties after 39 rounds.
at some point one must realize that and call it a 'push'. flip a coin.
again, there are other random factors in DB that have larger effects on the outcome
in these cases where bots are that evenly matched ...
such as a different seed resulting in different initial bot/veggie positions ...
resulting in very different outcomes when the 'skill' or 'abilities' of two bots is so close.
thus my bathroom scale analogy ...
one doesn't need to read to the 5th decimal point when there are forces
present which are 5 orders of magnitude higher.
I too am familiar with statistical analysis ... and it's proper 'application' in my field,
which is the calibration of nuclear instrumentation and control systems ...
including radioactivity detection and measuring ...
radioactive decay being pretty much all probability.
so we are required to run and document all kinds of chi-square
calculations and all that to meet required confidence levels.
and I maintain that here ...
after 39 matches ... if a winner can't be determined ...
then it doesn't really matter.
flip a coin and move on.

As you have found a couple of bots changing position in a F1 rerun v F1 conditions only; this makes me more curious but as you used the win button I am not sure.

no ... you misunderstand ...
the position change is due only to the fact that in league play
not all bots get to go up against all other bots.
so the league ranking ended up being slightly different ...
than the ranking resulting from a round-robin where every
bot did indeed mix it up with every other.
and all I did there was add to the league results ...
running additional matches between those bots who
hadn't had a chance to go up against one another
during the running of the league.
I brought this up to illustrate that difference ...
what can happen when A beats B, B beats C, C beats A ...
yet C never gets to meet A in a league situation.
I don't like that.
btw ... any two bots I have run in such a contest outside
of leagues so far ... has resulted in the same bot dominating
as did, in league play. most matches are not really
all that close, and the winner pretty clear.
I just wanted to geve all of them the same chance
against all other bots.

ran another 6 in F1 League mode ...
[this would be #7 - #12 overall]
results:
1 - DIN2  
2 - Dominator Invincibalis
3 - Destinatus Preliator  
4 - James 4  
5 - Carnatus Orbis  
6 - Duplo Simpleboticus  

didn't do a 'round robin' with these ...
not really much to contest/question in this ranking.

this doesn't take too long ...
so will probably do the rest in groups of 6 as well ...
then figure a way to allow the 'winner' of each of
these to challenge the bots in the league 'above' ...
and see what kind of final ranking that comes up with.

and I do also go back and rerun any matches
between two opponents if/when I have used the Win
thang to speed things up ...
and let them go many rounds ...
just to see if they are indeed evenly matched.
some pairs of bots are just going to be even ...
A winning on tuesdays, B on cloudy days.

btw ...
haven't encountered any bugs or crashes ...
and the Win button seemed to increment by one ...
at least when clicking on the defender.
seems I saw it go up by two when clicking on
the challenger ... but I can't recall for sure.
will try to set up to test that from VB so I can
take a look at the mouseclick loop.

but then ...
I have 14 inches of snow to shovel from the
driveway so I can get out ...
and it's a long one so ....

onward

[Griz]

League hangup

ver 2.42.9r compiled

running F1 league ...
doing these six for the #13 - #18 slots:

1 - Carnatus Orbis (F1)(PY)-20.09.04
2 - Kyushu (F1)(Henk)-08.05.06
3 - HDV4 (F1)(PY)-pre 30.07.04
4 - Virulus Discretus (F1)(Flowin)-02.03.04
5 - Virulus Spinnens (F1)(Flowin)-01.03.04
6 - Vex Pefidiosos (F1)(Jez)-30.12.04

got down to:
Virulus Discretus vs  Virulus Spinnens

they are evenly matched, neither able to stay alive long ...
and in round 25 they both died out the same time ...
[had these two do the same thing previously]
which then leaves DB stuck in a loop that I haven't
been able to find a way out of.
I did save the sim ...
but upon reloading, that league data doesn't seem
to survive.

I'm going to leave these two bots out of the leaguetable for now.
I expect they would end up at the bottom anyway ...
as they seem to barely be able to survive at all.

but ... that problem still exists if both happen to die out
in the same cycle or whatever.
maybe some sort 'escape' button to abort a given
match should we get 'hung up'.

I'll see if I can get them to do it running thru VB ...
maybe then I'll be able to pause and get into
debugging mode.
or not.

[Jez]

My results for the second round of the RR, (the One v all) so far stands at:

The One v:
Callidus (lost 0/5)
Spanish C 5 crashes (error76)/ 3 non existant bot results/ 2 freezes
Animal S
Din
Darth

This is under VB debugger using F1 conditions.

Will try again tomorrow.

[EricL]

I think I've found the crash.  Will post a buddy drop later tonight.

[Light]

Surely if it is a statistical draw after x rounds it should count as a loss to the challenger and if they are entered in their current order in the leagues you should get the same result? or am I missing something?

[Griz]

Surely if it is a statistical draw after x rounds it should count as a loss to the challenger and if they are entered in their current order in the leagues you should get the same result? or am I missing something?

yes.  

there is no 'statistical draw' as it stands now ...
if there is no 'statistical decision' ... it goes on and on and on and on ...
never ending.
that's one point ... how long do we let it do so before understanding
that a statistical draw means a draw?  so pick one already!
however ...
it should go to the bot which has won the most rounds up to then ...
because with 'statistical draw' set up as it is now ...
a challenger can have won many more rounds than the defender ...
and although it might be fine to give the match to the defender
IF it has already been established as being ranked higher ...
we are talking here about establishing the ranking in the first place ...
the 'intial' ranking ... establishing a league ranking ...
and in that case, when no 'order' has yet been imposed ...
there is no 'challenger/defender' per say ...
that has yet to be determined ...
so it should go to the bot having the most rounds won at that
time, in that particular case ... because that's all we have to
work with.
and I am telling you, as it is set up now ...
there are factors other than bot skill in play here ...
which have more of an effect in determining who 'ranks higher'.

let me give you an example of how the present 'initial ranking' ...
ie ... the establishing/rerunning of a league ...  
leaves something to be desired ...
that the results will vary greatly depending upon
the initial positions/ranking.
[if you don't believe it ... run the following league ...
then randomly alter the initial order and run it again.]

I just finished running a 'mini-league' of six bots ...
starting positions [everybody has to be somewhere]
1 - Carnatus Orbis  
2 - Kyushu
3 - HDV4  
4 - Vex Pefidiosos  
5 - Devincio Eversor  
6 - D Scarab 3  

the League results, final ranking:

1 - Carnatus Orbis  
2 - Vex Pefidiosos  
3 - HDV4  
4 - Devincio Eversor  
5 - Kyushu  
6 - D Scarab 3  

now ... as it turned out, D.Scarab only had one match ...
which it lost to Kyushu [for some strange reason] ...
so it never had a chance to go up against anyone else.
also ... Carnatus Orbis only had 3 matches ...
and none here ever went up against all other 5.
there were actually a total of only 9 matches played ...
out of the 15 possible combinations/iterations.
[1-2, 2-3, 1-3, 2-4, 3-4, 1-4, 2-5, 3-5, 2-6 using the initial order]

so in addition to keeping track of who beat who in
league play, I also ran those other contests ...
[1-5, 1-6, 3-6, 4-5, 4-6, 5-6] note 6's (D Scarab) 4 missed matches
with a surprising result ...
ole D Scarab 3 kicked butt not only on Devincia Eversor,
HDV4, and Vex but  Carnatus Orbis as well!!!
yet here he is ranked 6th, 5 behind the 'champ' ...
whom he is able to defeat.

in a one-on-one test of all 15 combinations of two bots ...
here is my final tally and what the ranking should be, imo:

1 - D Scarab 3 ........... W-4  L-1
2 - Carnatus Orbis ..... W-4  L-1  
3 - Vex Pefidiosos ...... W-3  L-2  
4 - HDV4 ................... W-2  L-3
5 - Devincio Eversor ... W-1  L-4  
6 - Kyushu ................. W-1  L-4  

D.Scarab over C.Orbis 'cause in their
match he prevailed.
quite a difference, eh?

so ... just trying to point out ...
to bring to attention ...
when establishing the initial league ranking ...
ie ... running a league the first time ...  
the results are going to be highly dependent upon
the starting positions of the bots ...
as this will determine who gets to go up against who ...
and I'm sorry, imo, ime ...
that does not result in a ranking that can be considered
to be 'statistically correct'.
it might look/sound good' ...
but me thinks we are fooling ourselves.

again, please note:
I am talking about the initial running of a league to
determine that initial ranking.
do we really want the chance placement/positioning of
bots to be what determines the ranking?
I think not.
we want the bots to be able to be what determines
who ends up where.
do we not?

[Jez]

I think I've found the crash.  Will post a buddy drop later tonight.

Thanks Eric, I look forward to trying it, if you put the source code up as well I shall use it with the debugger.

how long do we let it do so before understanding
that a statistical draw means a draw? so pick one already!

Using the 'defender wins if contest exceeds' option is akin to picking one. Afterall, whatever the score at that point, even if it looks like one bot is winning hands down, the result is no more or less than a draw.
Also don't forget that when I run the league there will be no max limit of rounds. In all the reruns I have tried so far I have only see them break the 400 round barrier in two matches so far.

The reason the defender wins; consider the way the leagues have been run up till now, it has always been the newer bot as the challenger, the newer bot is considered to have the advantage afterall.

Considering the point that the initial order of the bots makes a difference to the final result, which I am not questioning, would you feel happier if the initial order of the bots was set by their age? Oldest first - newest last? Shouldn't be to hard to set up. I would be happier doing it like that than changing it so that it was most rounds won at a certain point and it would be easier to do than a Round Robin for the whole league.

[Griz]

My results for the second round of the RR, (the One v all) so far stands at:

The One v:
Callidus (lost 0/5)

I assume you mean The One lost 5 times?
that's what I found.

Spanish C 5 crashes (error76)/ 3 non existant bot results/ 2 freezes

hmmmmm ....
is this the crash Eric said he thinks he has sus'd out?
I haven't seen that one in a long time ...
except when it's my own fault, failure to get the path right.

I had The One and Spanish C locked in battle ...
19 rounds to 19 rounds  ...
the 39th round going on and on and on ...
so called them a Draw
 
so I have
The One vs  
Won 7W-1L ..........  Din
Won 5W-0L ..........  Darth
Draw 19W-19L ...... Spanish C
Lost 0W-5L against Callidus
Lost 1W-7L ..........  Animal S

have additional results for all 6 ....
but have to compile them.
will put them up later today if I get a chance.
also the next 12 will follow before long.

[Griz]

F1 League Experimentation
the 'first' 6 bots

Callidus vs
Won .. 5-0 ... Animal S
Won .. 5-0 ... Spanish C
Won .. 5-0 ... The One
Won .. 5-0 ... DIN
Won .. 5-0 ... Darth  

Spanish C vs
Won .. 5-0 ....  Animal S
Won .. 5-0  .... DIN
Draw 19-19 ... The One
Draw 19-19 ... Darth
Lost ... 0-5 ..... Callidus

Animal S vs
Won .. 7-1 ... The One
Won .. 5-0 ... Din
Won .. 5-0 ... Darth
Lost ... 0-5 ... Callidus
Lost ... 0-5 ... Spanish C
 
The One vs  
Won .. 7-1 ..... Din
Won .. 5-0 ..... Darth
Draw 19-19 ... Spanish C
Lost ... 0-5 .... Callidus
Lost ... 1-7 .... Animal S

DIN vs
Won .. 5-0 ... Darth
Lost ... 0-5 ... Callidus
Lost ... 0-5 ... Animal S
Lost ... 0-5 ... Spanish C
Lost ... 1-7 ... The One

Darth vs
Draw 19-19 .. Spanish C
Lost ... 0-5 ... Callidus
Lost ... 0-5 ... Animal S
Lost ... 0-5 ... The One
Lost ... 0-5 ... Din

basing a 'draw' on 38 rounds ...
just because that's where these two
ended up ... with no end in sight ...
the point at which, imo:
'statistically no winner' = a draw.

and so my ranking based on W-L-D ...
W = 1, L = -1,  D = 0.5
Bot .............. W ... L ... D
1 - Callidus ....... 5 ... 0 ... 0 ....... 5 pts  
2 - Spanish C ... 2 ... 1 ... 2 ....... 2 pts
3 - Animal S ...... 3 ... 2 ... 0 ....... 1 pt  
4 - The One ...... 2 ... 2 ... 1 .......  0.5 pt
5 - DIN .............. 1 ... 4 ... 0 ....... -3 pt  
6 - Darth ........... 0 ... 4 ... 1 ....... -3.5 pt  

which in this case happened to end up
the same as what came out of Leagues:
 
1 - Callidus  
2 - Spanish Conquistador  
3 - Animal Supremus  
4 - The One  
5 - DIN  
6 - Darth Shimazu  

but this isn't always the case.
I found some ranking 'descrepencies' while
running the next two batches of 6 ...
which I'm still compiling.
the League 'ranking' imo, not taking into
account the influence that the initial starting
order imposes upon the resultant ranking.
[see details of that in the post I made earier
today ... #71 in this thread ....
just 2 or 3 up from here.]

I'm just sayin' ....
if we are going for statistiacal validity ...
let's not miss the forest for the trees, eh?
 
just raising some issues that stick out
from my perspective.

[Griz]

The reason the defender wins; consider the way the leagues have been run up till now, it has always been the newer bot as the challenger, the newer bot is considered to have the advantage afterall.

Considering the point that the initial order of the bots makes a difference to the final result, which I am not questioning, would you feel happier if the initial order of the bots was set by their age? Oldest first - newest last? Shouldn't be to hard to set up. I would be happier doing it like that than changing it so that it was most rounds won at a certain point and it would be easier to do than a Round Robin for the whole league.

you are still missing the point, Jez ...
regardless of how you set them up ...
unless every bot gets a shot at every other bot ...
the 'ranking' isn't going to be accurate or fair to
all bots, and the ranking is NOT going to correct.
once again ...
I am talking about setting up the initial ranking in a league ...
when no order has previously been determined.
that's a little different than having some new
bot challenge an established league/ranking ...
but even then, there are some problems ...
as I found with with D Scarab 3.
Kyushu stopped him ...
but that was the only match Kyushu won ...
losing to everyone else above him ...
but still effectively barring D Scarab 3 from taking
them on and defeating every one of them!
for all I know, D Scarab may rise even further.
this is where the 'ranking' as is,  falls down.
sorry ... that's a fact jack ...
and I'm sorry if it makes it more difficult ...
but if we are so concerned with being statistically correct ...
then let's actually do it correctly.  
otherwise we are just pretending to have significant findings ...
remaining caught up in the details of justifying extending the
match to run endless numbers of rounds ...
when there are glaring errors in the set up that render all
of those precise calculations moot.
like ignoring there is an elephant in the room.

well ... imo ...
ideally ...
Leagues should be separated from the main DB ...
and then set up so each bot goes up against every
other to establish the initial 'pecking order'.
how a new bot would then challenge ...
is something I haven't thought much about yet ...
but I would still lean away from the present way ...
so one bot that might have his number ...
wouldn't prevent him from challenging others.

smaller leagues would be a big help, eh?
then giving the top ranked bot a shot at the
next level up.

btw ...
running 6 bots in leagues ...
5 would be the minimum # of matches ...
[each defeating the bot ranked directly below]
to rank them ...
and I think it could go as high as 15.
I'm finding it taking 9, 10, 11 so far.

now with 6 bots, the max # of matches needed
in order for each to go against each is 15.
so if we are already running around 10 matches
on average ... and running just 1/3 more would
eliminate all the inaccuracies ...
might it not be worth the time to do so?
if we really are interested in being accurate?

I don't know that this ratio holds for larger leagues ...
will have to think on it and experiment a bit.
not sure just how Eric has the sequence set up ...
seems like he mentioned tweaking it a bit
recently, but I haven't found just where yet.

just how difficult would it be to set it up so
each bot played each, Eric?
I would think it might be less complicated than
it currently is.

well ...
whatever.