Code center > Bugs and fixes
League Problems
Jez:
--- Quote from: Griz ---btw ... as listed in F1 ...
some of those in the top positions most certainly
are displaced by some lower in the ranks ...
Animal Supremous, or whatever it's named ...
worked it's way all the way to the top ...
and of course UMA 3.0 doesn't stay at #2 long.
so in order for me to run leagues ...
I'm finding I can't just do it as a challenge ...
but have to rerun it all ...
and so far I haven't been able to ...
having a crash at #10.
in the meantime, I may just split them up into
F1, F1A, F1B ... 10 per league ...
to establish some realistic pecking order ...
and then combine them farther down the road.
--- End quote ---
Try deleting the _ in the .txt name of number 10, should work then, I will get rid of the deadwood soon, sorry it's taking so long, didn't realise how much work I had voluntered for! After MB and SB leagues have their own downloads I will do.
Try putting a post in the suggestions part of forum, Eric is more likely to see then, a concise list of ideas would make his job a little easier, I fear, we are, distracting him from his book! Any help we can give, including, as you suggested, being patient and waiting for DB 2.43, would do him a little bit of the honour he deserves, for helping the DB program oh so much.
Unfortunately I can't program, if I could, then I would. I hope you have access to the source code sometime soon; I think with so many recent fixes that it is, a work in progress.
DB was never, never meant to be, a program for bots to battle to the death. More a sort of evolution, that I met and took a tangent too, of bots that just survived to be the best.
(No sarcasm intended; I really should go to bed now! )
Jez:
SB & MB league downloads now available, the next updates will be the leagues being rerun to get rid of 'deadwood'. Following that new entries will be added.
Griz:
--- Quote from: Jez ---Try deleting the _ in the .txt name of number 10, should work then,
--- End quote ---
???? I don't see any '_' in the .txt or the robot names.
so ... don't know where you found that.
I do have a question about how the 'challenge'
thing works.
looks like it's a 'bubble sort' thing ...
as long as the new challenger wins ...
he moves up in the rankings ...
the challenge match ending when he loses ...
the bot above him not continuing the challenge
as the bot above him has already defeated him.
I think this is how it goes, but haven't run enough
of them to know for sure.
now here's a problem with that, imo.
not quite the ole 'prisoner's dilemma' ...
but something sorta, kinda, similar.
consider:
A can defeat B, B can defeat C, C can defeat A.
now say the ranking is A, B with C the challenger.
C never gets a chance to challenge A ...
whom he could defeat ...
because it can't get by B.
see what I mean?
a new challenger who may be able to kick butt
on the leaders, may get stopped early on by a
bot that can take him, and perhaps only him ...
but not the bots above.
same can occur during the league setup run ...
where not everyone gets to fight everyone else.
so thinking of alternate ways to initially set up a league ...
or ensure bots get to challenge as many other bots as
possible. just an idea I'm tossing out, ok?
I don't know how many 'matches' must be run to re-run
a league of 30 bots to establish the initial 'pecking order' ...
as I say ... I crashed after the prog ran thru the first 10 ...
but even then, Animal Supremus was making a bid and
moving up thru the rankings.
so not sure just who all ends up fighting who.
#1 and #2 square off, if #1 wins then #2 and #3?
if #3 wins then he takes on #1 I think ...
I'm not sure just how it goes ...
but seems it will vary depending on just who beats who.
so running thru all 30 ... quite a number of matches.
so just throwing this out here:
ideally one would have say 32 bots ...
pair them up randomly into 16 pairs/matches ...
the 8 winners being paired up ...
the 4 winners from that paired up ...
the 2 finalists going head to head for the championship.
total number of matches = 16+8+4+2+1 = 31.
this is low enough so that the league standings could
be rerun more often ...
and the initial pairing up being random ...
always the chance that a bot or new challenger could
end up one of the top dogs ...
the ranking not written in stone ...
but subject to change over time.
the bots and their stats, ie W-L could be printed
and documented, kept on file ...
and could be viewed just like one can go back
and see baseball standings from the past ...
up to the present.
just something to think about, eh?
another idea was to keep the present way leagues work ...
but experiment with dividing the participants into groups of 4 ...
8 leagues for 32 bots ...
running each league with only 4 bots would take a
maximum of 6 matches ...
and perhaps less depending on whether or not
some bot gets crushed or not.
then taking the 2 top ranked bots from each ...
in this case, 16 bots, and running them in four
more 4 bot leagues ...
and the four top placers from them ...
in a final 4 bot league.
so that's 15 playoffs, ...
8 initial, 4 quarter finals, 2 playoffs, 1 final ...
90 matches total [maximum ... if it takes 6]
to set up the league, the initial pecking order.
I don't know how that stacks up against the # of
matches required to sort them all out as leagues
run now.
an advantage here ...
would be that all bots get at least a shot at getting
a shot to go up against the top dogs.
just food for thought ...
trying to think outside the box that already exists.
that's what I like doing.
well, I'll play with some of these ideas ...
and let Jez rerun the leagues as they now stand ...
as I don't have the computer power or time to
do an extended thing like that.
Jez:
--- Quote from: Griz ---???? I don't see any '_' in the .txt or the robot names.
so ... don't know where you found that.
--- End quote ---
Oh, ok, that was what made the prog crash for me when I reran what you had done is all.
You have the right idea about how the leagues work atm, if bot C can't beat bot B it doesn't get to fight bot A.
It could be considered a problem, after all DB has long tried to play paper/scissors/stone with the bots tactics.
I think, if every bot was in the right place, only 5 rounds per match, that's 29 matches so 195 rounds minimum to rerun a whole 30 bot league, (or 200 min if entering a new bot that gets to top). Hopefully if I leave the pc on tonight and it doesn't run into any bugs then it might be nearly finished tomorrow.
I fear instead though, two bots will get tied or I'll get two species that don't work properly and just sit there not dying. I'll see tomorrow.
Part of the reason for leagues being challenges is that the newer bot is considered to have the advantage, you can't just walk around an old bot you can't beat and win by beating the bot above it. But you may have noticed some other league options that haven't been implemented yet in the 'restart and league' tab. We will hopefully get them one day.
Numsgil:
The code is set up to potentially allow other sorts of leagues, such as a free for all where all the bots get dumped in a single simulation and are graded based on how long they last.
But the leagues as an "official" institution are very concretely set up. Newer bots that reach the top need to be able to defeat all other bots. This is more interesting than it sounds, because when you're designing a bot you need to figure out several strategies to get past various problem bots.
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