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Leagues

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Jez:
That's an interesting idea Nums, it would mean a clean sheet though. Never found a defence other than 1G bots against viruses either, wouldn't it put virus bots in an unassailable position? Sort of like where it was once with tie bots virsus shot bots, something that led to the first branching of the league.

I'm not against the idea, recently the possibilities for bots have moved light years ahead of where they stood circa the last league version. Would it encourage you to enter a bot in the 'new' league? Would it encourage others?

What do people think about ignoring this previously held convention about backwards compatibility and preserving the past? The leagues do tend to be ruled by the latest bots afterall.

Numsgil:
Is there anything wrong with the top bots being single gene?  If that's what it takes to win, that's what it takes.  The bottom of the league is still really easy to bump out.  Heck, Animal Minimalis places like 25th.

If it becomes really obvious that we need to do so, we can always create some "junior" leagues.  But I bet as the program evolves there won't be any lasting "best" strategy.

Henk:

--- Quote from: Numsgil ---I think leagues should be redone.  Most of the different leagues are superflous at this point, since things are pretty well balanced gameplay wise.  Just have a Free for all league for now.  In the future we could create more leagues, but at this point I think a single, anything goes league is just fine.
--- End quote ---

I partially agree; I think a separate MB league is a good idea, because MB's are fundamentally different from other bots.  I agree with combining F1, F2 and SB into one FFA league.

We shouldn't just do away with the old leagues though; I think archiving is a good idea; I mean they are part of DB history.

As to the next 'canonical' league version; I think we should wait for Eric to stabilize 2.4X (the league function in particular), then use that version.

Jez:

--- Quote from: Numsgil ---Is there anything wrong with the top bots being single gene?
--- End quote ---

Only that they are much harder to write than the normal bots. The leagues were never intended to be a showcase of just the best writers, they were also meant to provide an obtainable target for new players. If it were otherwise then, right back when I first started competing against PY, the league would just have been a long list of bots by me and him! (Not saying we are the best bot writers just that we were, literally, the only two competitive bot writers at that time and we made a decision not to do that.)

I agree with Henk, a seperate MB league (the acme of bot design), and archiving both sound great ideas. I am waiting for Eric to sort a version out with working leagues before all this happens as well, it's just a bit of discussion first.

PY, has, in the past, put an awful lot of work into keeping the old bots up to date with newer versions of DB. Many of the old bots simply wouldn't work still otherwise. It's not something I have the patience to do, I'd just scrap 'em and write a new one and PY doesn't have the time to do this any longer. Not something I'd expect volunteers to be crawling out the woodwork to do either. I would suggest we stop worrying about backwards compatibility as much as we have been. (Remember the dinosaurs?)


****

Paradigm (seeing as that is a popular word atm) for new leagues! (Using DB version that Eric recommends)

MB league - Old rules apply - Any of the old MB's (without redesign) that still work will be entered to create starting league

Free for all league -  As it sez on the tin! - Any of the old bots (without redesign) that still work will be entered to create starting league

****

I won't put a max length on the FFA league until it starts to take to long to run, (anybody should be able to beat the bots at the bottom of the league without real problems). The only rule I might consider is a 'sploiting rule. It makes it a bit easy to get to the top (from experience   ) but does highlight problems with DB. If one type of bot turns out to dominate then either a new league will be created or pressure will be put on you all to figure a way to even out the playing field.


I think I still have a file somewhere with most of the bots that had been written up to a certain date but I'm not sure how you'd suggest archiving stuff.

Henk:

--- Quote ---I won't put a max length on the FFA league until it starts to take to long to run, (anybody should be able to beat the bots at the bottom of the league without real problems). The only rule I might consider is a 'sploiting rule. It makes it a bit easy to get to the top (from experience   ) but does highlight problems with DB. If one type of bot turns out to dominate then either a new league will be created or pressure will be put on you all to figure a way to even out the playing field.
I think I still have a file somewhere with most of the bots that had been written up to a certain date but I'm not sure how you'd suggest archiving stuff.
--- End quote ---

That's why we need a solid and easy to use league-functionality in DB: league moderators would be able to run 100-bot leagues easily if the program ran the league overnight without chrashing and such. I think a stable and easy-to-use league-functionality in DB will take the load of league moderators, which is a good thing. In the past I have experienced it to be quite some work to be a league moderator at times (especialy with many new bots or a new version of DB). I think PY can agree with me on this.

Ideally users would be able to upload their bot to a server which automatically enters the bot and outputs the league table to a website

As to the archiving; maybe we can archive all League posts from the forum and save a copy on darwinbots.com (accesible via the wiki). Maybe we can salvage some from the old forum, too; but I'm not sure if that's still online etc.

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