Author Topic: Sharks and grass  (Read 9408 times)

Offline PurpleYouko

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Sharks and grass
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2005, 07:18:36 PM »
Hey AZPaul

If you don't want the mutation rates of the robots to change at all or you want to keep them completely under your control then that is just fine.

All you have to do is to set the mutation control "Mutate mutation rates" to zero and they won't change for individual robots.

In case you haven't caught up on the debate yet here is a summary

We all seem to be in general agreement that the enzyme system will be a bit pattern system containing any number of random enzymes. This pattern can be set from a section of the DNA file but it will mutate from generation to generation, enabling and disabling different enzymes.
The idea is that evolution will find the best ones to deal with the present environment through random mutation and selective processes of survival of the fittest. No Lamarckian sentiment here anywhere.

The main part of the debate is whether the DNA file should actually actively control production of the available enzymes or whether it should simply be assumed that the bot has enough enzymes to digest the food that it has eaten provided that
it is able to make that specific enzyme that is needed.

My vision of the whole system is a huge number of possible bit pattern enzymes that are enabled completely randomly by mutations. Many different enzymes may be able to act on a particular kind of food or gas but they will do so with different efficiencies based on their individual bit pattern. With this number of possible enzymes, the variability of the robots and their ability to specialize in different things by mutation will be awesome. I see no way that we could ever control all these enzymes directly from the DNA. We would need thousands of specific addresses for the DNA to control. Not even remotely feasible in my opinion.

Shvarz sees the enzyme production controlled directly from the DNA with conditions and commands. can't really think of a suitable mechanism by which to run this. (then again, to be fair, that would be partly because I haven't really tried to) I beleive this is unecessary and pointless.

 :D  PY  :D

PS  Don't worry Bots, the ability to mutate the mutation rates isn't going anywhere. If anybody doesn't like it then they can just disable it.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world

Those who understand binary.

and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

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Sharks and grass
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2005, 07:23:47 PM »
Py but do we agree on the "make...breack" system?

****
P.S.
****

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PS Don't worry Bots, the ability to mutate the mutation rates isn't going anywhere.

Thank God , I was going crazy here...
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 07:24:46 PM by Botsareus »

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2005, 07:32:12 PM »
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Py but do we agree on the "make...breack" system?

Not sure yet. I think I can make it work but I don't understand the mechanisms 100% yet.
That idea is still being debated I think. We are slowly approaching some kind of agreement but we will just have to wait and see.

 :D  PY  :D
There are 10 kinds of people in the world

Those who understand binary.

and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2005, 07:35:01 PM »
omfg , thats why I sayed to shvartz to summerize hes general idea and post it here:

http://s9.invisionfree.com/DarwinBots_Foru...p?showtopic=202

Then we can further develope on it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 07:35:20 PM by Botsareus »

Offline AZPaul

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« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2005, 05:35:42 AM »
Well, two days here and I've already earned my first flame. Lucky me.

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I feel like  <----- this guy

I am having a nervius brake down here

Get back on your meds.

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Yes Yes , AZPaul is right, next we will tackel the qustion of "Lets get rid of all mutation all Completely.

I'll assume English is not your primary language and you mistook my reference to "rates" as meaning "all mutations" which is clearly incorrect.  "Rates" of mutation need to be in my control not the programmers.

In my simulations the "rate" of mutation of "values" is set much higher than the "rate" of whole new gene insertion. I don't need a programmer altering these values from deep within the bowels of the object code.  Now I find that each individual Bot has it's own set of mutation "rates" that I will need to make appropriate for my study.

Asside to PY and you other DB Gurus:

Are these individual "rates" the probabilities of mutation within that individual's own genome or are they the rates applied to acheive a mutated genome for Junior?

Back to the game:

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How about this idea AZPaul, I wana know how mutch you hate it:

When you save a mutated robot Dna file, you will save its own seporate mutation rates as well, so I dont have to do bloody screen shots , and save bitmap pictures of each bloody Dna rates

Say what?  I see why you are considered uncomprehendable when you write. You're uncomprehendable.

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Yea but what happens on level difference between bacteria and a person, I think you will find significant changes of how Dna mutates here.

You need to study more Gould, Kaiser and Dawkins. Genome mutation vectors are the same for [you]all[/you] life on this planet. And, barring environmental mutagens (which may exist in more or less abundance in a locality and include considerably more than your false god of radiation), the "rate" of such mutation of the genome between an E. coli cell and a cell in H. sapien is very similar. Do the research.

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But what if switching to a new food is more Efficient in a situation? Now you will say lets ban all the different situations, so everything is boarding plain and simple like it is now.

That kind of over reaction is just foolish, isn't it. Are you really that big of a fool?

Quote form my post:

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The basal levels of enzymes are determined in the DNA and are not affected by the long term presence or absence of the foodstuff within the individual nor will it affect the basal level of the enzyme as coded for in the DNA I pass on to Junior.

Your reaction:

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If that was true , we would of died out as bacteria when all the Methane ran out in the atmosphere. But we did not , we evolved....

You really are an idiot.  Read carfully, boy, I'm only gonna write this once.

The change in the environment did not cause the mutation.  Understood?

The mutation occurred hundreds, if not thousands of generations prior to the environment change. Since the mutation was not harmful it quiesced in the genome. And the mutation in the genome was totally random, totally unpreditable and totally "undirected" by anything. It was a lucky, fortuitous event in reaction to absolutly nothing!  

It just so happened that this (now no longer mutation but a wide spread feature of many within the species) capability was expressed when the environment changed (which itself was a slow process taking millions of years). Only those individuals of a species that already had the useful ability (no longer mutation) survived. Millions upon millions of other individuals and millions upon millions of entire species that did not have this now inbred ability (did not win that round of the random genome mutation game) died. As in dead, extinct. "We" are only here because "we" hit the genetic mutation lotto (and a whole hell of a lot more than once).  Beneficial mutations are not made to suit the environment. Only those genomes that suit the environment live. All others die. Got it?

I have enough fun doing this with Creationists. I certainly did not expect such academic immaturity here.

Now call your doctor, get your prescriptions refilled and go lie down somewhere.

-P

(no that's not a pouty, tongue stickie-outie emoticon. It's a "P" as in "Paul")

Post modified for spelling errors - 20 Mar 10:30 am Phoenix time. -P
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 12:30:27 PM by AZPaul »

Offline PurpleYouko

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Sharks and grass
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2005, 03:54:36 PM »
AZPaul

Please try not to get too agitated about Botsareus.

I know he can be exasperating at times but he is quite a nice guy when you get to know him. He just has a tendency to over-react and forgets to put his brain in gear before engaging his mouth (keyboard)

He actually does understand a lot more about evolution than you might think, as can be found out by reading all the archives.

You think you are explaining something but he already knows it and actually (mostly at least) agrees with you. I don't know why he goes off like this now and then but that is just the way it is so don't go getting upset about it.

As you supposed, English is not his first language and I think a lot of misunderstandings arise there.

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You really are an idiot. Read carfully, boy, I'm only gonna write this once.

The change in the environment did not cause the mutation. Understood?

I think everyone here understands that (At least I hope they do), but please refrain from direct insults. As you say we get enough of that on Creationist/evolutionist websites. I hang out on the EVC forum quite a bit too.
I am sure Bots undetands this quite well.

As to your question
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Asside to PY and you other DB Gurus:

Are these individual "rates" the probabilities of mutation within that individual's own genome or are they the rates applied to acheive a mutated genome for Junior?

The rates are applied only to reproduction. There is really no mechanism for mutations within the lifetime of any given robot, at the moment.

 :D  PY  :D
There are 10 kinds of people in the world

Those who understand binary.

and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline AZPaul

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Sharks and grass
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2005, 04:31:15 PM »
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I think everyone here understands that (At least I hope they do), but please refrain from direct insults. As you say we get enough of that on Creationist/evolutionist websites. I hang out on the EVC forum quite a bit too.
I am sure Bots undetands this quite well.

My appologies to Bots, yourself and the rest of the board.

Love and kisses,

-P

Offline AZPaul

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Sharks and grass
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2005, 05:01:44 PM »
From PY:

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If you don't want the mutation rates of the robots to change at all or you want to keep them completely under your control then that is just fine.

All you have to do is to set the mutation control "Mutate mutation rates" to zero and they won't change for individual robots.

After many simulations I'm beginning to see how to control the rates to within 1 standard deviation. I can live with this. Thanks

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The main part of the debate is whether the DNA file should actually actively control production of the available enzymes or whether it should simply be assumed that the bot has enough enzymes to digest the food that it has eaten provided that it is able to make that specific enzyme that is needed.

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I see no way that we could ever control all these enzymes directly from the DNA. We would need thousands of specific addresses for the DNA to control. Not even remotely feasible in my opinion.

One of the beauties of DB now is it allows verbose control for the major facets of NeoDarwinian evolution (if I can work around this sex anomoly) as it sorta almost really works without being overpoweringly complex to handle. If the DNA will control which enzymes are permitted then a simple  --  cond *.enzyme-A 100 < start 50 .mkenzyme-A store stop -- would be the control. If there are thousands of enzymes available this could become untenable. I'll let you and shvarz arm wrestle this one.  For my purposes either would be of no concern.

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No Lamarckian sentiment here anywhere.

pheww...Thank you. And unlike my missive you spelled it correctly. Thank you again.

-P

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2005, 01:43:27 PM »
AZPaul , what exactly are you using DarwinBots for?
What are your purposes?

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sry that I went off on you like that , its just that the way the mutation is set up is really critical to my work: I am trying to make a robot naturaly mutate from a very basic robot to a robot who can beat anyone in the legue tabels. I had some luck already, check out bot4g in the Bestiary.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 01:57:19 PM by Botsareus »