Author Topic: Sharks and grass  (Read 26961 times)

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2005, 04:20:21 PM »
This actually makes many of the Bots' previous posts much more normal.  Before I thought that he was on crack  :lol:
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2005, 04:31:04 PM »
... I only take legal drugs shvartz...

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2005, 05:18:20 PM »
You can't get very high on Advil

 :D  PY  :D
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2005, 05:27:32 PM »
Not that any of us have tried :rolleyes:  :wacko:

Offline AZPaul

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« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2005, 01:07:03 PM »
I'll get in on this.

Quote
Initially, the rates effect the entire species but each robot mutates as an individual including the rate of change of mutations.
After a few generations, each and every bot has a totally different set of mutation rates than all the others.
They are stored in an array known as "mutarray" as a subset of each robot's personal characteristics.

Why would you want to do this?  Mutation rates are determined, for the most part, by environment and affect all populations and species in the same way. Only in those rare instances where a mutation has occurred in the "proofread/repair" cascade of the genome (either in the DNA itself or in the Mitocondrial RNA that make the cascade protiens) will you find a significant mutation "rate" change for the offspring of that individual, if it lives long enough to procreate.  In reality, the mutated allele difference between me and my parents is not significantly different from the the mutated allele difference between me and my son.  It is the sexual shuffel of whole genes that give the more significant differences. Excess radiation, mutagenic chemicals (dioxin, DDT), viral insertion etc. are the major vectors of mutation "rate" change and are environmental. Transcription error, gene slicing/splicing are internal vectors of mutation but do not show significant rates of change in their occurance from species to species let alone from individual to individual within a species.  All in all the mutation rate for my sister's daughter does not differ significanly from my son's rate (except for environmental vectors).

I want to control the rate of mutation for the whole environment. By species is fine since that allows me to set a very low rate for my test Bots (allowing sexual selection to alter the population) while leaving others to mutate as a control. I do not want the internals of the hidden program changing rates on it's own. This is not real.

Ranting can feel so good.  Thanks for the ear.

-P

Offline AZPaul

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« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2005, 02:08:14 PM »
To continue.

I've read some things in this thread that disturb me (re: enzymes and digestion). Please do not go off on some lamarkian tangent. Disuse or use of specific capabilities in the genome do not affect the offspring's acquiring those capabilities.  The abundance or scarcity of a food source will not affect the genome passed on to my offspring.

If the gene for the digestive enzyme is present then the food will be digested. If not, it won't, no matter how abundant the food source is generation to generation.
If a mutation (determined at random) just happens to bring in the new enzyme then the individual and it's offspring can digest the new food. If such a mutation does not occurr the new food is useless to the individual and it's offspring for all generations to come.  The presence of a new food does not, and in simulation should not, cause the mutation to happen. If it happens it happens, if not then it won't.

And I guess I don't understand the controversy over the level of the enzyme present. In real living cells the enzyme (if coded for) is present. The level of the enzyme is (usually) moderated through a complex series of proteins (another protein cascade). If the level of enzyme is too low (as determined by the protein sequences coded from the DNA) then the cascade results in more enzyme being produced.  If the level is too high then the cascade eases and less (or none) of the enzyme is produced. The basal levels of enzymes are determined in the DNA and are not affected by the long term presence or absence of the foodstuff within the individual nor will it affect the basal level of the enzyme as coded for in the DNA I pass on to Junior.  Just because I eat more Food-A does not cause any increase in my base level of digestive enzyme-A. Quite the opposite. It decreases the level of enzyme-A causing the controlling protein cascade to kick into gear. And unless there is a beneficial mutation (determined at random, not determined by any environmental attribute) the basal level will not change from generation to generation.

Any thoughts of some lamarkian effects on the mutations or operations of DB/DNA Bots in simulation need to be excised out, summarily executed, creamated and the ashes scattered over a dung heap to be forever forgotten.

OK. Enough fun. I got some real work to do.

Again, thanks y'all for letting me rattle on.

-P

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2005, 02:15:59 PM »
I feel like  :pokey: <----- this guy

I am having a nervius brake down here:  :unsure:

P.S.

Yes Yes , AZPaul is right, next we will tackel the qustion of "Lets get rid of all mutation all Completely.

BTW

If you remove the separate mutation rates for each robot I will officially stop using the new versions of the program.

How about this idea AZPaul, I wana know how mutch you hate it:

When you save a mutated robot Dna file, you will save its own seporate mutation rates as well, so I dont have to do bloody screen shots , and save bitmap pictures of each bloody Dna rates


Now lets conclude this (pure ununderstandable stupidity)

Quote
[you]I want to control the rate of mutation for the whole environment.[/you] By species is fine since that allows me to set a very low rate for my test Bots (allowing sexual selection to alter the population) while leaving others to mutate as a control. I do not want the internals of the hidden program changing rates on it's own. [you]This is not real.[/you]

He has no idea what real is , I wont explain because everyone on this board thinks I am Un-comprehend-able when I write.

The only thing the inv. gives us is radiation. Each little object on the planet reacts to this radiation the way it wants.

Its not the other way arround: The radiation is the god of all ,and it tells all weather it should mutate a second head , or a third foot.

Quote
Why would you want to do this? [you]Mutation rates are determined, for the most part, by environment and affect all populations and species in the same way. [/you]Only in those rare instances where a mutation has occurred in the "proofread/repair" cascade of the genome (either in the DNA itself or in the Mitocondrial RNA that make the cascade protiens) will you find a significant mutation "rate" change for the offspring of that individual, if it lives long enough to procreate. In reality, the mutated allele difference between me and my parents is not significantly different from the the mutated allele difference between me and my son. It is the sexual shuffel of whole genes that give the more significant differences. Excess radiation, mutagenic chemicals (dioxin, DDT), viral insertion etc. are the major vectors of mutation "rate" change and are environmental. [you]Transcription error, gene slicing/splicing are internal vectors of mutation but do not show significant rates of change in their occurance from species to species let alone from individual to individual within a species.[/you] All in all the mutation rate for my sister's daughter does not differ significanly from my son's rate (except for environmental vectors).

I dont know where the hell did he learn that B.S. but I think its not from making his own mutation simulators , thats for sure.

Quote
Transcription error, gene slicing/splicing are internal vectors of mutation but do not show significant rates of change in their occurance from species to species let alone from individual to individual within a species.

I don’t know , but we cant model any molecular level dna even with 2.15Ghz possessors , If you want to model real life join a biology school like Shvartz.

Quote
All in all the mutation rate for my sister's daughter does not differ significanly from my son's rate (except for environmental vectors).

Yea but what happens on level difference between bacteria and a person, I think you will find significant changes of how Dna mutates here.

Yea but who is going to listen to Bau this days , especially on a Saturday

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2005, 02:19:22 PM »
:shoot: DO NOT REMOVE THE SEPORATE MUTATION RATES FOR EACH ROBOT

 :shoot: IF YOU WANT TO IMPROVE ON THE GENERAL MUTATION RATES CONTROL, BUT I THINK THAT WILL MAKE THE PROGRAM TOO UNREALISTIC

SO mutch blubs dam it:

 :shoot:  :blueblob:  :blueblob:  :blueblob:
 :shoot:  :blueblob:  :blueblob:  :blueblob:
 :shoot:  :blueblob:  :blueblob:  :blueblob:
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 02:20:01 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2005, 02:23:24 PM »
Quote
The presence of a new food does not, and in simulation should not, cause the mutation to happen. If it happens it happens, if not then it won't.

But what if switching to a new food is more Efficient in a situation? Now you will say lets ban all the different situations, so everything is boarding plain and simple like it is now.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2005, 02:29:28 PM »
Quote
The basal levels of enzymes are determined in the DNA and are not affected by the long term presence or absence of the foodstuff within the individual nor will it affect the basal level of the enzyme as coded for in the DNA I pass on to Junior.

If that was true , we would of died out as bacteria when all the Methane  ran out in the atmosphere. But we did not , we evolved....

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2005, 02:32:38 PM »
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Any thoughts of some lamarkian effects on the mutations or operations of DB/DNA Bots in simulation need to be excised out, summarily executed, creamated and the ashes scattered over a dung heap to be forever forgotten.

Are you saying that mutation is bad, and the whole Dna concept of math mixed with biology is bad.
That’s it PY I had enough of this crap, the thread can stay, but this posts need to go, go, go.

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2005, 02:35:09 PM »
You know what from now on I will stop posting and just watch Db turn into another stuped mindless video game.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 02:35:35 PM by Botsareus »

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2005, 02:40:27 PM »
Anyone like a new Legislation for America, to ban Computer Geeks , Video Games , and go communist to make all Scientific research top secret?

Martin thats you? Some CR kid thats You? Are you doing this just to piss me off more?

Thats I am not posting here for a while.

AZPaul , Join shvartz , now we have two Agents

No , No , this kid is from Sony, Sony is afraid of competition.

PY , if I dont see this tread cleaned up or somthing , I will give up on DB, I still have 2.35 I can remake for myself, No one did any De-OS on me, good luck with that...

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2005, 03:14:19 PM »
AZ, don't mind Bots.  He's a local ...  super-active guy.

In general your comments are quite sound.

1. Individual mutation rates.  These are not, of course, determined by environment.  But they also don't differ that much between different individuals.  Mechanisms responsible for replication of DNA are very conserved and are unlikely to change in a single generation.  That's why I was confused when people told me that each bot has a different mutation rate.  But on the other hand, I don't mind if bots do have different mutation rates - the default rates were not set based on some logic, they were just arbitrarily picked.  So if they are too high, then then evolution may adjust them accordingly.  So it's not a big problem.  

2. Lamarkism.  Don't worry, we are not going there.  Most people on this board have a pretty reasonable understanding of how evolution works.  When enzymes will be implemented, the ability to create an enzyme will be determined by DNA.  The amount of enzyme will be determined semi-automatically based on the need in that enzyme.  The more you need - the more you make.  Whether it would be possible to adjust amount of enzyme from DNA is still debatable.  PY is strongly against it.  I am strongly for it.  And Nums is somewhere in between, I think.

The reason for automatic adjustment of enzyme amount is that such mechanisms exist in nature, especially in bacteria.  Bacteria often shut down enzyme production completely if the substrate for that enzyme is absent.  And start making that enzyme when substrate appears.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2005, 03:56:38 PM »
Quote
1. Individual mutation rates. These are not, of course, determined by environment. But they also don't differ that much between different individuals. Mechanisms responsible for replication of DNA are very conserved and are unlikely to change in a single generation. That's why I was confused when people told me that each bot has a different mutation rate. But on the other hand, I don't mind if bots do have different mutation rates - the default rates were not set based on some logic, they were just arbitrarily picked. So if they are too high, then then evolution may adjust them accordingly. So it's not a big problem.

Thanks for being on my side for once Shvartz :P