Author Topic: Specialization again  (Read 8281 times)

Offline shvarz

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Specialization again
« on: March 08, 2005, 12:03:06 PM »
OK, just for the fun of it, I am going to play devil's advocate and argue that we don't need a specific "specialization system" at all in DBs.  Throw your arguments at me for the contrary.  But please be specific.  I dont want any general pylosophical questions, I want direct things that don't work in DBs and how specialization system will fix them.  Let's see where it leads us :)

So far, I've seen one very specific comment (from PY?): Bots don't specialize in feeding.  There is no way for a bot to specialize in eating only a particular type of bot (say a veggie).  So we need a system to force it to specialize.

My answer:  Bots don't specialize, because there is no need for it.  Energy is energy in DBs, regardless of where it came from - from veggie or from competitior bot, or from your own species.  If we make bots to consist of different types of energy (protein/carb/fat system discussed), then specialization will appear on its own, without any artificial "specialization system".
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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Specialization again
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2005, 12:11:17 PM »
My list of complaints:

1.  There is no incentive for the cells of a multibot to specialize to specific functions.  They can do so, but those cells will just be less powerful compared to their genearlized form.

2.  Plants and animals have a very concrete division between the two.  A plant cannot become an animal, or vice versa.  I think it'd be cool to be able to run some sims with a primitve bot that slowly evolves into plants and animals.

3.  There cannot exist more than one animal and one plant species.  There are no ecosystems that naturally develop beyond the most simple.  Any mutation sim left indefinately will develop 1 animal and 1 plant species.  Having larger sims doesn't change this fact.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 12:12:58 PM by Numsgil »

Offline PurpleYouko

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Specialization again
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2005, 12:16:13 PM »
Quote
If we make bots to consist of different types of energy (protein/carb/fat system discussed), then specialization will appear on its own, without any artificial "specialization system".

Ok In this I absolutely disagree.

No matter what we add to the phyiological makeup of the robots, there is no way that specialization can happen with the present system of physics in the DB universe.

There is simply no mechanism to allow it.
The actual VB code isn't there.

We would have to have some different commands for eating different things or else all feeding commands would yield exactly the same thing. Energy.
Having different commands to specify which things we can eat is very cumbersome so a bit system of enzymes would work better in conjunction with the different energy types listed above.

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Offline Zelos

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Specialization again
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2005, 02:08:20 PM »
to make the specilization to come automatic, you need different energy sources and different ways of getting them, else it wont happen. the enzyme system will work fine as "getting energy" and if we have different areas where the chemicals will pop up is a good wat of different energy sources. in some areas where S is usual they will develop to eat it and other bots whit high concentraion of it. while in a Fe region it will be the same, but Fe instant of S. while in the middle of them we will get bot whit enzymes which is (let us say) half good on both, but can do both, whit both Fe and S they get enough energy, but if they come to far to the source of S or Fe they will not be able to get enough energy. coz they only get 50% of the energy in the Fe or S
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Offline shvarz

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Specialization again
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2005, 02:21:48 PM »
Nums points:

1.  Please give me an example.  It would also be nice if you could give a biological example of what you are trying to achieve.

2. Yes.  However there is no "point" system or any other "specialization system".  The difference comes from laws of nature.  If we introduce the correct laws of nature, the specialization will come naturally.  Even the "carb/protein/fat system" might already lead to that.  Also, remember that a large amount of plankton has ability to do both - photsynthesize and hunt.

3.  Even the largest sim that we run still can be crossed by a bot within its lifetime.  There is no diversity in environment, it is homogenous.  In such a situation nature also results in selection of a single most fit species.  So no conflict with real life here.  Introduce more diverse environment and specialization will come.

PY points:

1.  Hmm, did you see the this page?  It explains how "protein/carb/fat system" may lead to appearance of different species.  No additional physics necessary.

2.  The mechanism for specialization is in genes.  They allow different behaviour, thus - specialization.

3.  In the thread linked above Nums explained how the feeding would work in such system.  It is done for the bot, so there is no need to code specifics, just general decisions based on data ("crunchy" -> "spit out").
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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Specialization again
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 03:16:53 PM »
1.  Humans are composed of roughly 400 cell types.  Each has specifically changed itself from its stem cell ancestors to become a specialized cell type.  In DB, we can model this but the end MB will usually be less fit than a bunch of single cells alone.

This is really why I'd want any specialization system at all (aside from enzymes, which is a seperate but highly related thing).

2.  Which specific laws of nature allow creatures to both photosynthesize and/or digest other creatures?  Knowing this, at what level do we have to model it in DB?  The more abstractly we model it the easier it is to handle but the less flexible it is.

The best system would be to model individual atoms, and the compounds they make.  But that's obviously too complex.  In the end I'm thinking of some kind of system where predefined and user defined compounds intereact in predefined ways.

Then from these rules the program figures out enzymes that can use those reactions.

3.  You can't deny that in real life a 2 step deep food chain is rare.  Usually you have plants (plankton usually) -> herbivores -> carnivores.  Even this simple relationship won't develop naturally in the present situation, since plants are as good to bots as animals.


You seem to agree that food types (and presumably enzymes to digest them) are okay, right?

Without some form of specialization, bots have no incentive to only eat one kind of food.  The best bots will have enzymes to eat everything.  Which means all bots are omnivores, which means none can find any distinct niches and our sims are inevitably pretty dull.

Adding specialization of mechanics is only useful for multibots.  Yet I don't want to give multibots something that isn't available to single bots, since that'd be pretty artificial.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Specialization again
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 03:56:08 PM »
Quote
PY points:

1. Hmm, did you see the this page? It explains how "protein/carb/fat system" may lead to appearance of different species. No additional physics necessary.

2. The mechanism for specialization is in genes. They allow different behaviour, thus - specialization.

3. In the thread linked above Nums explained how the feeding would work in such system. It is done for the bot, so there is no need to code specifics, just general decisions based on data ("crunchy" -> "spit out").

Point 1
I read every thread. Doesn't make it any more possible for that to happen though.
DBs live in a world defined by the VB code. In that code it not possible for any robot to tell the difference between carbs, fat or proteins. in each case all you see is energy and body. You shoot it and all that comes back is energy.
It makes no difference whether a robot shoots a veggie or another robot. He gets the same energy back. Not only is there no incentive to specialize but there is no ability to do so without a change in feeding efficiencies for food types.
Almost all creatures specialize in some way as to what they eat. Dogs eat meat and get sick if they eat grass. Cows eat grass and would probably have a hard time digesting a dog.

point 2
only up to a point. The genes can only do certain things within the Visual basic code. DB isn't an infinitely variable system like real life is. There is absolutely no way in the present system for any robot to become a specialized feeder. Even a robot that evolves to only fire shots at other robots with no eyes (specific veggie) can still get energy back from shots that miss the veggie and hit another bot by accident. In a specialized feeding system we could stop these shots doing any damage at all unless the feeding robot had the right enzymes to feed from the other robot type.

point 3
that is exactly my point. I want this to be sub genetic level and behind the scenes. I don't want a robot to have to fire a specific shot at a specific type of food or use a genetic instruction to metabolize sunlight. It should be automatic in the presence of the correct resources. Only bots that feed on other bots should need to shoot at all.

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Offline shvarz

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Specialization again
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 06:26:08 PM »
OK, guys, good job in convincing me that some form of specialization is necessary.  Your biology-related arguments are weak, but PY has a very good point about introducing something in VB code that makes it possible for cells to get better in a chosen task (how that would be done we can still discuss).  And Nums has a good point about the level of detail we want to model.  Certain arbitrary desicions must be made and accepted (after all, I accept the idea of eating by shooting particles at food :) ).

It was not as much fun as I hoped it to be, but..  well, that's life.

BTW, since so many discussions do center on biology (at least my discussions do), what about making a separate "folder" for this?  People could talk about biological issues there and how these are modeled (or can be modeled) in DBs.
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Offline Botsareus

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Specialization again
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 07:18:25 PM »
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(how that would be done we can still discuss).

I think what PY and NUM are working on right now does not need any more modification until we actualy test it.

Offline Botsareus

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Specialization again
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 07:23:48 PM »
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I think it'd be cool to be able to run some sims with a primitve bot that slowly evolves into plants and animals.

Why dont you like this idea shvartz?

Offline shvarz

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Specialization again
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2005, 07:29:37 PM »
I like this idea.  I just don't want it to involve an artificial "specialization system", which would let the bot simply assign "points" to "photosynthesis system" and become a plant, or assign "points" to "muscles" and become an animal.  I want it to come more naturally.
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Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2005, 09:13:08 PM »
I think we also need to rewrite the "mutation rates" in terms of dna to, as a long run. The current system does not seam to work, as I proved tuday when I proved the Theory of Evolution.

Offline shvarz

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Specialization again
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2005, 09:30:06 PM »
the Theory of Evolution I think proved we also work to rewrite current system in terms of dna when I need  the long run.   "mutation rates" proved tuday to seam to.
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Offline Numsgil

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Specialization again
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2005, 03:24:53 AM »
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I think we also need to rewrite the "mutation rates" in terms of dna to, as a long run. The current system does not seam to work, as I proved tuday when I proved the Theory of Evolution.

Quote
the Theory of Evolution I think proved we also work to rewrite current system in terms of dna when I need  the long run.   "mutation rates" proved tuday to seam to.

Was any of this supposed to make sense?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 03:25:56 AM by Numsgil »

Offline PurpleYouko

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Specialization again
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2005, 09:21:09 AM »
Didn't to me  :blink:

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