No new mutations

[Testlund]

I've been wondering why there aren't any new mutations showing up in my sim. I have point mutations set to 5000000, that is I have typed 5000 in the field. Is this feature just not displaying because Eric stripped that from this version or aren't there really any new mutations? Old mutations are showing but no info in the mutations window. The bots are changing their colors slightly over time though, just a little within 40000 cycles or so.

[EricL]

Things should work just like before in 2.42.4 w.r.t. mutations.  The only change I made was to add the option to save a sim with the mutations details stripped.  If you load a stripped sim, mutation details should be added as mutations occur just like normal.  If this isn't happening, it's a bug.

[Testlund]

I can't find where that option is located. It's difficult to say if I actually get any mutations. My sim runs so slow at takes a whole night for just 10000 cycles. There aren''t any new mutations showing up in the info though.

[EricL]

The new save option is on the File menu.

Do you think something changed w.r.t. speed in this version?  Nothing in that version should have impacted runtime perf.  Do you think things are running slower then they were or do you just have a large sim?

[Testlund]

Ok, I found it. I allways click on the button instead when I save the sim. To save without mutations I have to click on that specifically, right? If so I haven't used that so the mutations should be showing. On the robot window it shows how many old mutation are there but new mutations allways says 0 and nothing on mutation details.

I think the reason why the sim runs so slow is because I have 600 veggies with tons of DNA and lots of corpses, 1266 objects on screen. I guess that can be expected.

[EricL]

Yes, you have to save with that menu item to strip mutations.  The only reason for doing so is to reduce the sim file size.

The probability of catching a new mutation in a specific individual is pretty low.  At a point mutatuon rate of 5000, with 1000 bots each with DNA 100 long, you would get one point mutation every 50 cycles.  This means the probability of any specific bot you look at having a new mutation cross 50% only after 25000 cycles and that's in the special case of 0 mortality.  As the average lifespan of the individuals in your sim falls, the chances you will *ever* catch a new mutation similarly decrease.  If you have costs and reproduction, it should not be surprising you see no new mutations.  The individuals in which point mutations do arise die before you look at them and the mutations become old mutations in the extant descendents.

[EricL]

On the other hand, if this sim was saved prior to 2.42.4 and had a ton of mutations and you used the buddy drop I posted to re-load it and strip the mutation details, then one possible side effect of that action is that the per-bot mutation rates can be screwed up.  They come after the mutation details in the sim file format and there isn't much I could do about that without writing more code then I wanted to.

Unfortnatuly, I don't know of a good way to fix or even check this.  The mutation rates that one specifies on the Species tab are actually stored along with each individual, duplicated with each bot, not stored globally for the species.  I presume this is so that the mutation rates for specific individuals are themselves heritable and thus subject to evolvution and change.

This won't happen with new sims which begin with 2.42.4 or old sims which newer blew the old mutations details limit, but for sims which did....

Any new bots you add to the sim will respect the mutation rates you specify.  You could cut the DNA from some of your bots, create a few new species and re-add them...    If you really wanted to save this sim, I suppose you could modify the sim save routine in the code to save the sim with the mutation rates you wanted.  Then when you re-load it, all would be well...

[Numsgil]

I believe you can check the mutation rates of a bot by right clicking on it.  There should be an entry in the drop down menu.

[Testlund]

I've never thought of that I can check mutation rates by right-clicking on a bot, but when I check it out the mutation rates are different from what I have set it to be. Maybe it looks like it should and I just don't understand it but... I have set point mutation to 5000000 and the change type/value slider to 75, but when I right-click a bot and look at the mutation rates it says 500000 and the slider is set to 0!  

I don't remember if this sim was started prior to version 2.42.4 or if I started a new sim after this release.

[EricL]

I'm pretty sure the current code does not mutate the mutation rates, so it sounds like you have a pre 2.42.4 sim that got saved and reloaded.  Are point mutations enabled on the bots when you right-click and look?  

The good news is that you should be able to reset the mutation rates to whatever you want or to the defaults manually through the right click dialog...  1000 times over...  

[Testlund]

Yeah, the point mutations are enabled on the bots when I right-click. But there must be something wrong here. If I start a new simulation, whould the bots have the same individual mutation rates as I set it before I start a sim? Otherwise this should be maybe be fixed. It can't be right the the value slider is set on 0 for every bot when I started the sim with the slider set to 75.

[Testlund]

I saved one of my veggies DNA and started a new sim with 100 veggies with this DNA. Everything looks right now. Mutations are building up and the mutation settings show the same on the individual bots as in my settings. It must have been something with my save that I loaded into this version. I think it's better to start a new sim for a new version.

[EricL]

I think it's better to start a new sim for a new version.

Going forward, you shouldn't have to.  2.42.4 was a special case because a serious bug that had been around forever was fixed in that version and even then, the only issue was with long running evo sims.  People may have run long run evo sims on pre 2.42.4 versions in the past, but they certainly were not saving and re-loading them!  Prior to 2.42.4, ANY saved long running evo sim would fail to re-load in *any* version once the mutation details grew large enough.  As far as I could tell, this bug had been there since the beginning.  I did what I could to patch it so that in 2.42.4 so you could at least get old sims to load and for new sims, fixed it right so that sims can be saved and loaded correctly with any amount of mutation details.

So, going forward, unless another similar bug crops up, any future changes should be 100% backwards compatable.  Certainly there will be no sim file format changes in 2.42.5.

[Testlund]

I think those guys have more than 1 computer. Grrr! Jellous!   Maybe I will be able to buy one in sptember so I can run long sims on this one.

Personally I don't mind starting a new sim with a new version. I just save the DNA from the best bot/veggie. It's good to refresh sometimes. It slows down so much otherwise. I started today with a new sim. 5 veggies from this ex nihlo sim I've been running. They started with only 1 energy and after 60000 cycles I had 51 veggies. That's pretty cool coming from veggies that started with this DNA below, considering I have lots of costs, even ageing costs:

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