Author Topic: 2.42.3b Now Available  (Read 13263 times)

Offline EricL

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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2006, 12:29:13 PM »
I've did lots of testing with both fixed and nonfixed bots before I released.  Here are some things to note:

Bots arrn't solid.  Collison detection just applies forces to their velocities.  The forces are scaled by their mass so this can result in some strange behaviour.  For example, if a massive non-fixed bot hits a lightweight non-fixed bot, things appear like you expect - they penetrate some, the massive bot gets deflected a little, the less massive one gets deflected a lot.  But if the less massive one is fixed, the amount the massive one gets deflected remains the same so it will appear as if the massive one moves through the smaller fixed one and only gets deflected a little.

(Hmmm.  This gives me an idea.  Maybe I should treat fixed bots as extremely massive for the purposes of calculating the forces on the non-fixed collider.  I'll try this...)

Also, bots under their own power can thrust against collison repulsion forces and penetrate.  As above, small mass bots won't have a lot of inertia.  It they thrust each cycle, they can overcome the collision forces.  Additionally, ties connect to a bots center so for very large bots, the length of the tie "pulls" the bots towards each other and provides forces opposite to the colision force.

Multibots present some other strange problems because the collison forces can be translated to tension forces on the tie so tied couples can sometimes appear to go through large bots since the forces on the bots can balance and the ties themselves are not currently part of collision detection.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 12:31:00 PM by EricL »
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2006, 12:37:59 PM »
Alot of issues stem from the way the program lets bots interpenetrate in 2.4.

Offline Elite

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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2006, 01:01:20 PM »
Quote from: EricL
(Hmmm.  This gives me an idea.  Maybe I should treat fixed bots as extremely massive for the purposes of calculating the forces on the non-fixed collider.  I'll try this...)
Good thinking. I'd say making fixed bots infinitely massive for collision calculations would probably solve some of the problems  

I've narrowed down my collision bug: If the first bot on the list is 'blocked' the collision detection for all bots is disabled.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 01:01:33 PM by Elite »

Offline EricL

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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2006, 01:05:23 PM »
Quote from: Numsgil
Alot of issues stem from the way the program lets bots interpenetrate in 2.4.
A lot of issues stem from the quantum nature of cycles.  Bots with high velocity can move a lot further than a pixel in a cycle, which means they can penetrate other bots before the code even gets to know there has been a collision.  For fast moving, small diameter bots, they can even collide and pass their centers before the code gets a chance to do anything.  I suppose we could move collision detection to be predictive in cycle n-1, but I'm not up for that today...  

Quote from: Elite
I've narrowed down my collision bug: If the first bot on the list is 'blocked' the collision detection for all bots is disabled.

Ah hah!!!!!  Nice work.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 01:14:46 PM by EricL »
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Offline Elite

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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2006, 01:08:46 PM »
To be fair, after compensating for my collision-detection-disabling bug by placing the blocked veggie after the unblocked bot, I was really impressed with the physics.

I think that bug is the reason why collision detection wasn't working for me in the earlier versions either.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 01:10:02 PM by Elite »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2006, 01:22:18 PM »
Quote from: EricL
A lot of issues stem from the quantum nature of cycles. Bots with high velocity can move a lot further than a pixel in a cycle, which means they can penetrate other bots before the code even gets to know there has been a collision. For fast moving, small diameter bots, they can even collide and pass their centers before the code gets a chance to do anything. I suppose we could move collision detection to be predictive in cycle n-1, but I'm not up for that today...

 What we really need to do is a "sweep collision" test.  Basically make a long cylinder which is the bot's continuous position between opos and pos.  Test this against other bots' position cylinders.
 
 If they intersect you need to find the point where the cylinders touch.  This point gives you both the time at which they collide and the position.
 
 Seems overkill to use the time from that collision (time steps are already rather fine), but it certainly would make sense to use that position in figuring out collision response.

Shots already do this when they test against bots, mostly because you have a line instead of a cylinder so it's alot easier.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 01:23:37 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Elite

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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2006, 02:56:54 PM »
Quote from: Elite
I've narrowed down my collision bug: If the first bot on the list is 'blocked' the collision detection for all bots is disabled.

Any idea as to why it might be doing that?

Offline EricL

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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2006, 10:55:33 PM »
Quote from: Elite
Any idea as to why it might be doing that?
Yea, it's because I'm an idiot.  I had a stupid bug: rob(1) instead of rob(rob1).   Doh.

2.42.3b is posted.  This bug is addressed and fixed bots are treated as if they mass 32000.  I think we have it now.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 10:55:58 PM by EricL »
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Offline Testlund

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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2006, 04:28:51 AM »
Quote from: EricL
Bots arrn't solid.  Collison detection just applies forces to their velocities.  The forces are scaled by their mass so this can result in some strange behaviour.  For example, if a massive non-fixed bot hits a lightweight non-fixed bot, things appear like you expect - they penetrate some, the massive bot gets deflected a little, the less massive one gets deflected a lot.  But if the less massive one is fixed, the amount the massive one gets deflected remains the same so it will appear as if the massive one moves through the smaller fixed one and only gets deflected a little.

Sounds realistic to me. I see the bots as living cells, not solid marbles.  

Hmm... I'm not sure about trying 2.42.3b, because I'm not interested in using fixed bots anyway. 2.42.3a works nice I think.
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Offline Elite

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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 05:28:33 AM »
Darwin2.42.3b.exe is corupted. It won't extract from the zip file  
Anyone else notice this?

I think you may need to re-upload it
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 06:46:25 AM by Elite »

Offline Griz

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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2006, 08:06:18 AM »
Quote from: Elite
Darwin2.42.3b.exe is corupted. It won't extract from the zip file  
Anyone else notice this?
I think you may need to re-upload it
thought I'd wait to see where this ends up first.

how about the source code?
http://www.darwinbots.com/FTP/Darwinsource2.42.3b.zip
不知
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Offline EricL

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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2006, 10:18:48 AM »
Quote from: Elite
Darwin2.42.3b.exe is corupted. It won't extract from the zip file  
Anyone else notice this?

I think you may need to re-upload it
I just uploaded it again and tested that it unzips correctly.

Quote from: Testlund
Hmm... I'm not sure about trying 2.42.3b, because I'm not interested in using fixed bots anyway. 2.42.3a works nice I think.
If it's not too much of a hassle, would appreciate it if you could move at some point.  You're my #1 bug finder and I'd prefer to have you on the latest bits.    No hurry.  Thanks.
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Offline Elite

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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2006, 10:21:56 AM »
Bah, I've downloaded it again but when I try to extract the files from the zip it says "error extracting the file" and won't extract the executable.

 

Is this happening to anyone else or is it just me?

Offline EricL

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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2006, 10:34:50 AM »
Quote from: Elite
Bah, I've downloaded it again but when I try to extract the files from the zip it says "error extracting the file" and won't extract the executable.

 

Is this happening to anyone else or is it just me?
I just tried it again and now I get an error....  hmmm.

I uploaded an unzipped version.  Try this.

Unzipped 2.42.3b
Not sure why the link isn't working...  Hang on.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:40:08 AM by EricL »
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Offline Elite

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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2006, 10:37:49 AM »
Quote
Internet exporore cannot download Unzipped 2.42.3b from www.darwinbots.com

The login request was denied

^ That's what it says when I try to downlod the file attached to your post

Can you download it?