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Thoughts about other a-life progs.

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Numsgil:

--- Quote from: Welwordion ---Emergent systems are from beeing easy soltutions, rather it needs more mindwork and trial and error to find a good system instead of programming dozens of strange code that eats calculation power
--- End quote ---

 Emergent simulations almost always require more calculation power because you can't optimize them the way you can with a designed system.
 
 
--- Quote ---(If you ever tried to find cellular automata rule that give interesting results you know what I mean)
--- End quote ---

 Exactly my point.  A good emergent system with "interesting" results is difficult to create.  Alot of time you're better off just designing something as upper level rules.  It's only really worth it when the number of interactions is simply unfeasible to create by hand.
 
 Basically emergence is a mean to an end, not an end in itself.

Welwordion:
Well if you call it a mean to an end, my end would be asystem with multiple aka dynamically changing optimums that allow for different biochemical approaches to coexist (like having carbon, silicium and whatever lifeforms in the same simulation)

Currently I am trying my mind really hard to find a system which would allow that, which would have such freedom and you should notice tha every sytem which has an dynamical changing optimum is automatically ermergent as you can not predict the path this might take.

I mean look ar my previous approach with mutating fitness function competing, its te same basic idea when the physics itself are object to mutation the optimums might also change.
A part of the hard thinking is also to create a system with an open biochemistry that still controllable for an Ai and delivers enough input, sensory data to do so.

Welwordion:
How about we have some central core with  AI , movement ability and senses that can attach other objects to it and everything neutral which in turn is attached to it also belongs to its "body". When one of these cores is able to directly touch another core with its body, it overwrites it and also there might be a limitation to the "lifetime"
of a core which means it will autodelete itself after some certain time, creating empty core as "food".
So basically they would try to disassemble the hull of others to eat them.
This way protection, speed, control etc would counterbalance itself and as different bodies are composed of different chemicals, they need different digestion methods and structures that are able to come in contact with the specific component (lock and key principle)

(I also thought on a possible chemisty based on triangular objects but I will wait to expalain the idea until I got your feedaback on the core concept)

Numsgil:
You're basically proposing DB with metabolism

The problem with trying to simulate life as a biochemical process is that biological chemistry is intractable with modern hardware.

It takes supercomputers (or thousands of smaller computers hooked in parallel) to simulate the interactions of single protiens.

Which means you're going to be simplifying some things and presenting some high level rules.

Anything with different species competing and evolving in a rock-paper-scissors type system is going to be a dynamic fitness function.  I've seen several DB simulations run in which the changing of one species (plants) causes the bots to move towards a different optimum.

Welwordion:
I doubt your analysis highly.  
First your saying that I am proposing Darwinbots with Metabolism, the reason you do is that I introduce agentlike structures into my idea mix. However apllying  this definition, all games using agents would just be Darwinbots.
Second you say that biochemistry can only be simulated by supercomputer, however you take carbonic real life
chemistry as a measurement , which only confirms something I am thinking since a long time, that you try to imitate our life on earth to much instead of concentrating on a information theoretical abstraction which helps in a simplified approach.(well only your rock, paper, scissors argument is probably true, although I still have to observe this in one of my own simulations, but your quite better with finding good running cnditions for those sims)
 

For example the system I had in mind was based on the thought that each site of the triangle has a color/type
this colors woule repulse or attach to certain other colors, additional attachment could influence the shape of triangles by changing the position of the corner mark opposing the attachment site, such either stretching,kepping the form or shortening the triangle.
This would enable trough geometry and different color combinations  the forming of more complex body parts.
Additional the "core" could overwrite/change a certain number of reactions per round in order to control the growth and interaction of his body(besides moving and rotating when needed).
Example if a triangle with the wrong color combination tries to attach to a certain triangle of the growing body
the core could change this to repulse, or he could change repulse to atatching to make certain combinations
work out(which however means he would have to use that writing point every turn on this task).
The core could also use the change of form to orientated an bend certain limbs.
This could also be used to digest neutral/dead bodies by attaching to them, converting them into your own body and then seperating them.

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