Author Topic: Mmog with the goal to survive  (Read 16481 times)

Offline Welwordion

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Mmog with the goal to survive
« on: April 18, 2006, 02:11:04 PM »
While reading I stumbled somewhere over the lines, that someeone wished there would be more MMO games where you would need to colonize a world from scratch.
Well I myself also hope for better MMOG out there and I always wished for a game that would concentrate more on the aspect fighting for survival than killing for money exp and loot.
What about you?
What are your wishes for such a game? What features you would want?
Lets just  dream a little and plan or "perfect game" we never find out there.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Mmog with the goal to survive
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2006, 04:02:52 PM »
If you are interested in MMO games then you should probably head on over to Kuro-Tejina where I have a forum set up just for that purpose. The eventual aim is to use the site to launch my own MMORPG so now is a good time to discuss what would be good in such a game.
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Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2006, 04:09:38 PM »
I beleive that was me you were reading

Basically it's a game I've wanted to play since spring 2004.  At first I just wanted to find a game like that to play.  As time grows and I couldn't find anything even remotely like that (a few links later on) I've become increasingly ravenous.  If I ever reach a point with Darwinbots where I feel good to take a long break, that's probably what I'd start working on.

There's three ideas I'm balancing in my mind.  Sometimes I confuse them, but I think they're really somewhat different:

1.  Procedural world generation, perhaps even generating a universe of billions of stars with realistically scaled planets you can explore on foot (it's technically feasible, games like Noctis do it).  Such a game would be primarily about exploration.

There aren't any games that are really about exploration except maybe Noctis and the old school Commodore 64 game 7 Cities of Gold (where you were a spanish explorer).

When I was growing up we lived behind Edwards Airforce Base, which was surrounded by wilderness.  A kind of miny forest.  I loved just exploring the forest as a kid.

With a sophisticated procedurally generator you could create a world of sheer aesthetic beauty, that's a joy just to be in.

2.  Survival.  Stay put in the same couple square kilometers and survive starting with absolutely nothing.  Like being dropped naked in a virgin landscape.  In some ways this is sort of similar to River World or Hatchet.

This is something I'd sort of like to do in real life, but really don't have the time for (well, I could probably make the time...)

What I find most alluring is building up some sort of technology level from nothing.  Start with some flint and bones and build up rudimentary technology.  A house, etc.  Master the elements, so to speak.

If this is in an MMO setting, it would be interesting to watch and see if things like currency can develop on their own.  What sort of society rules develop.  And developers should take a non interference role, and just let society go all to pot if that happens.

The basic point is that you can die at any moment.  You can't really "level" your character.  A rock to the head can kill Samson as easily as Goliath.  Your character could be hundreds of days worth of work when he falls victim to food poisoning and dies.  Or he could slip and fall off a cliff.  Or he could drown when he tries swimming too far.  You want the death to be directly a result of the player's actions (instead of just random), but you want it to be permanent.

And then you start over.

The closest game I've found like this is UnReal World, which is unfortunately quite dated (and the guy is something of a copyright Nazi, refusing to release either source and still expecting to be payed for this old game.  I'm not against programmers getting payed for a game, but this game is seriously old).  Though it's still fun, I'd like to see a game like this expanded and refreshed.   A game where you can just live another life.

3.  A "living" world - I don't mean what modern games call living.  I don't mean a static world with maybe a couple of semi-intelligent NPCs going through the motions of life.

Things should matter.  If enough people kill enough deer, deer populations should begin to dwindle, which should effect the behavior and number of wolves.  Maybe wolves begin raiding towns and attacking people and rummaging through garbage.

If I cut down a tree that tree shouldn't regrow in 10 minutes, or 10 hours, or any time.  It's dead.  New trees might grow in its place slowly, having trouble as the ground is chocked with the dead tree's roots.  The process should be long.  If I clear cut an entire grove, it should stay dead.  If I plant an entire grove of trees they should live and grow and reproduce.

The idea is that actions matter, they have some lasting consequence.  Nothing in the world is permanent.  Take Morrowind for instance.  You can't break through walls.  You can't set a bomb and destroy the Temple of Vivic unless it's part of the story.  Even in a "free form" game like that the world feels very static.  I can't get a shovel and dig a hole, or build a dam in the river.  Admitedly that's not the game's point.

Or take most modern MMOs.  You kill an orc in a cave and a new one just appears out of nowhere.  I'd like to see orcs needing to be born from an Orc daddy and an Orc mommy.  And when they get hunted to extinction there's no magic resurection.  You kill all the orcs in the world and orcs are extinct.  You're not going to see another one.

You clear cut all the world's trees and it's an Easter Island/Lorax disaster.  No game developer is going to plop another one down for you.  Tough luck bucko.


Alot of these things are rather far fetched in some ways.  The technology for doing alot of these things is still in its infancy.  I'm willing to see compromises.  Heck, use old 2D graphics, I don't mind.  Music can be old Midis.  Sound effects can be little beeps and boops.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 04:54:31 PM by Numsgil »

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2006, 04:52:35 PM »
I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying and while your suggestions would indeed be pretty cool, you would probably have trouble finding players who would be willing to stick it out for long, particularly if charcter death is final.

Point 1 I agree completely. The game needs to be absolutely massive with loads of places to simply explore if that's what you are into.

Point 2 I think should be more of an option. I would design the world around a few hubs of civilization and allow people to adventure out into the wilderness and play survival as well if that's what they want.

Point 3 is definitely where I am heading. A totally living, persistent world where a chopped down tree slowly rots and new ones grow back over a long period of time. Probably a lot faster than in real life but still along certain rules

Additionally MMO players like to have quests and in every MMO that I have played, these are extremely linear. That is to say that each new character has to go through the same set of quests in the same (or similar) sequence. This also means that time doesn't actually pass for real in these worlds and that no matter how many people go out and collect 50 "Startstones" for the little guy on the corner of the street, the next player to come along will still have to get more.
On quest that you have to do near the start of FlyFF (discussions on Juro-Tejina) is for this guy who whines on about not being able to go home because there are too many monsters in the way. You have to kill about 20 of them so that he can go. Trouble is, the pillock never goes. he just stands there and whines to the next player.

I plan to make random quests that can only ever be completed by one player. If you aren't the first one back with the goodies, tough. Somebody else beat you to it and the guy isn't there any more.

I also plan to include a random dungeon generator with dungeons that gradually disappear once they have been fully looted and all the goblins killed.
Monsters WILL NOT simply spawn the way they do in most games. They will have to find a lair then reproduce in it until they spill over into nearby areas.

I have a whole bunch of specific plans for the project even though I haven't actually got stuck into the coding just yet.

As I said, come on over to Kuro-Tejina if you are interested.
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Offline Numsgil

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Mmog with the goal to survive
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2006, 05:07:34 PM »
The main problem I see is that MMOs must inherantly distance the player from the world so that it's "fair".

Which I totally understand.  It's no fun going into a used stall at a truck stop that the guy before you has managed to spray feces all over.

Which is why I think it would be nice to have a minimally massive online game (mMO).

Have like 12 to 50 guys connect to a buddies server in his house, or better yet, have a P2P network; the more players you have the more the world huffs and puffs.  Don't worry about hackers or people exploiting things.  Don't worry about griefers.  If someone does something you don't like, you can just kick him out.  It's just you and a bunch of your buddies playing in your own little reality.  You have complete control over the world.

The closest thing to this I've found is RunUO, which let's you (technically illegally, but EA doesn't really seem to care) set up your own Ultima Online shard, and totally customize it (the entire thing is set up in scripts).

Quote from: PurpleYouko
I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying and while your suggestions would indeed be pretty cool, you would probably have trouble finding players who would be willing to stick it out for long, particularly if charcter death is final.

 Character death is only an issue if your gameplay has the character constantly putting himself in danger.
 
 Most MMOs concentrate on combat, so it wouldn't be fun to have permanent death.
 
 A game that's about something else (A Tale in the Desert comes to mind) makes risk like it is in real life - something you can avoid if you're carfeul.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 05:04:08 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Welwordion

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Mmog with the goal to survive
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2006, 05:21:31 PM »
I always liked the feeling of malleabilities, maybe it some thirst for power or only the enjoyment to watch the everchanging, I like it when a world transforms evolves thinks are created and destroyed the whole world whirls forward and you are a part of it. (thats probably the same reason I am attracted to alife games)

I am convinced  that a true mmog should have some kind of physics, ways that thing works, transform and effect each other and that the rest should emerge from the complexity of combination.
(the problem is always to find the right system)

I am not quite so harcore regarding dead like you, but I want to fight for survival rather than standing there and
asking myself what purpose there is in killing monster for progression.
Thats why I would propose  that you should not lead a single char  but rather something like a family, so you would not get this: my char died because of a little mistake and now all was for nothing feeling, but rather:
Now the children have to carry on or it was worth dieing as long as the children life on.

I agree that the current leveling sytems are stupid as the concentrate on gaining strength(mostly fighting strength), buts as I want  to build up something I also do not want a char to be stagnant, rather I want the grow be in the diversity abd possibilities if of the char.
Like learning to climb gives you access to new places and adjusting to radiation gives you the possibility to survive in certain places.
These possibilities might also be magical like entering the farie realm or tinkering with the shape and grow of other organism. A char should be able to aquire a certain amount of these possibilities until he reaches his limit.
Such you would choose the form of your char and would need to put in some effort but once you aqquired your full potential you should stay like this and it would be up to you what you reach with your limited powers.
(this potential should either be reached very early or aqquired abilities should stay as lore in the family)

Be it starships or magic towers I want to see people cooperate driven by need, goals, ideals and greed.
So to say its the necessities the limits that give the game they purpose.

Note: It might be cool if there are certain locations that can only be reached by a certain combination of traits in a single or maybe in multiple people.
example: You need to be "small" so you can enter a certain cave, down there is a lava river to cross so you need to be fire resistant, then you reach a root of the Yggdrasil tree
as you have  the ability to fuse with living things you enter the root and reach  the core of the Yggdrasil tree, or use the tree as a connection to another pace.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 05:27:12 PM by Welwordion »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 05:39:29 PM »
Quote from: Welwordion
Thats why I would propose that you should not lead a single char but rather something like a family, so you would not get this: my char died because of a little mistake and now all was for nothing feeling, but rather:
Now the children have to carry on or it was worth dieing as long as the children life on.

 I like that.

 
Quote
These possibilities might also be magical like entering the farie realm or tinkering with the shape and grow of other organism. A char should be able to aquire a certain amount of these possibilities until he reaches his limit.

 I never really liked the idea of a limit.  Real life seems less to do with limits and more to do with specialization.  I could spend time and learn a little about everything, or I could concentrate on one thing.  The limiting factor is simply time.
 
 
Quote
Note: It might be cool if there are certain locations that can only be reached by a certain combination of traits in a single or maybe in multiple people.
example: You need to be "small" so you can enter a certain cave, down there is a lava river to cross so you need to be fire resistant, then you reach a root of the Yggdrasil tree
as you have the ability to fuse with living things you enter the root and reach the core of the Yggdrasil tree, or use the tree as a connection to another pace.

 I'm not against cooperation, but I always wanted to be able to solo everything in MMOs.  It's more fun for me to be self sufficient.  I'm not saying it should be easy for me.  But I once spent 30 minutes opening a car door with a hanger when I could have just gone round to the other unlocked door.  I'm stubborn.

Offline Welwordion

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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2006, 07:40:28 PM »
Well to be honest I would prefer of getting all my abilities early, then having to spend tons of time until I can finally use this or this spell.
Also with limit I rather meant the need of specialization, or better to say you are not omnipotent only when you
can not  aquire all abilities their remain weaknesses which make the game challenging.
Some games simulate that by implementing classes, others let unused skill lose points.
So when you say time is the limit , which time do you mean  the playtime of the player or the lifetime of the char, cause when only time is the limit the lifetime of a char would need to be limited, so he can not grow omnipotent.

Quote
I'm not against cooperation, but I always wanted to be able to solo everything in MMOs. It's more fun for me to be self sufficient. I'm not saying it should be easy for me. But I once spent 30 minutes opening a car door with a hanger when I could have just gone round to the other unlocked door. I'm stubborn.
You might have misunderstand me , I think of  a system where  aplayer can choose special traits (like in Vampire the masquerade) a set of special abilities he is born with and  and sometimes a certain combination of special abilities might be required to do something.
So you could choose to either make your char stronger by choosing extra strength, super regeneration, special speed, or choose abilities like flight and faerie blood, that will not raise your attack power by any means but  rather improve certain abilities or allow you to do things that others can not (like entering certain places).
So its rather a matter of customization.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 07:51:31 PM »
It depends a great deal on what the point of the MMO is.

In a competitive MMO, where you are in some way competing against others or fighting monsters, you don't want to become omnipotent, because that destroys the point of the game.

In a non-competitive MMO, (A Tale in the Desert being a good example of a non competitive MMO, not necessarily this point though) you could be omnipotent (meaning you have all the skills and can do anything others can) if you worked hard enough, and it wouldn't ruin either your playing experience or someone else's.

I'm interested in non-competitive games.  In a survival game where you just have to stay alive, (which is a constant struggle) and try to raise your standard of living, most of the game play is spent in construction and exploring, things which aren't inherantly competitive.

For instance, you could spend a week real time clearing a small section of forest and building a small house.

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2006, 07:51:53 PM »
One thing I have never been too keen on is when certain classes can only wear certain types of armor and other clothing.
My plan is to build a system where everybody can wear everthing and do anything.

The catch is that you will have to increase skills in certain areas to get the most out of the items.

Magic would be the same. A system of magical symbols, words and movements that can be combined in an almost infinite number of different ways. To start out, a character will only know the barest few of these magic components and will have to find/research them or pay a master to teach him. If a character is the one to find some new and snazzy spell then he will be the master and can teach others (for a price perhaps   )

There are actually 9 distinct types of magic in my world but who's counting?  

Same goes for fighting techniques and any number of other stuff.

Full customizability is the name of the game. No distinct classes or anything like that either.
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Offline Welwordion

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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2006, 08:07:37 PM »
I only meant if you are to strong, survival is to easy. Take Superman without Kryptonit there would be nor real challenge for him.
Oh and even in a survival game you compete, however not with other players but with the forces of nature, the animals you hunt and the hardships on your way.
If you can easily can get food their is no challenge in being hungry,also people tend to appreciate stuff more that is harder accomplish right?

P.Y.: Yeah thats what I wanted it to be "full customizability"
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 08:09:20 PM by Welwordion »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2006, 10:25:39 PM »
I'm thinking skills in a survival game would be things like lighting a fire, chopping a tree (which if you ever do in real life is serious work, even with modern tools), running without getting tired, etc.

Flying, "magic", etc. aren't necessarily things I think you'd include in a survival MMO.  It would just be distracting.  Though some spirituality might not be terrible.  Dream visions, "astral projection", etc.

Realistically though I think skills and practice should just help you become faster/better at what you're doing instead of letting you do new things.  A "legendary" character that can chop down a tree in a single thwack still isn't unbalanced, since there's more to surviving than chopping down trees.  Since the trees aren't respawning there are still physical limits to his power.

A character that can just materialize wood from nowhere would certainly be unbalanced and would ruin alot of the fun.

I hope that makes sense.

Offline Endy

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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2006, 12:42:00 AM »
Quote
I only meant if you are to strong, survival is to easy. Take Superman without Kryptonit there would be nor real challenge for him.

I agree with this 100%, I've deliberatly created harder situations in my games just to increase the difficulty level.  

To be really fun it needs to be challenging, but not impossible.

Presumably communities would/could still form, from scratch, the same as they do in real life. An area has particullarly valuable resources and people can pool their efforts/tallents to create a better life with the community, than they could alone. Eventually you'd be able to barter your particular skills for what you need instead of having to be at least moderatly talented in every area.

Would also like to see if the different components could be made to evolve ecologically, mentally, and genetically. This way the enviroment and species within could naturally adapt to man's influence. It'd also be nice if there were seeds allowed in the game, these could eventually encourage new growth. They'd also be hoardable incase some nut really does decide to chop every tree. A player with a stash tucked away could definitly come out on top if he's the only one able to supply lumber.

Offline Welwordion

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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2006, 03:05:45 AM »
Well I agree Num: regarding the kind of skills I just want not, that  certain skills are not included cause the would be unrealistic in real life, those skills is what I would call magic.
Maybe it would be better to say magic are abilities based on the physics of the game that from our viewpoint look magical.

Quote
Realistically though I think skills and practice should just help you become faster/better at what you're doing instead of letting you do new things.

Well there is the topic of thinks like writing, you can not write from the start you have to learn it and so there also should be thinks you might have the potential for but still need to learn first.

Also I do not necessary  think of the playing chars as "human" ,so the potentials(what you can learn not how good) you  have mightcould vary based on what kind of creature you are.
So when I say flying I rather mean that you are a winged creature, you choose at the start of your family line (or for each children?)
from a certain pool of traits, which basically give you the potential to learn certain thinks others might not.
For example you could have natural posion or the ability to eat certain kinds of food.

I already thought of similar such Games concepts on paper and had quite the fun imagining what you might be able to do.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 03:06:38 AM by Welwordion »

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2006, 10:32:43 AM »
Quote
Maybe it would be better to say magic are abilities based on the physics of the game that from our viewpoint look magical.
That is exactly the same thing  
This happens to be the way that I think magic works anyway. All it does is to manipulate the physics of the world in some way. Theoretically, machines should be able to be constructed that could manipulate these same forces.

The way I see a perfect-for-everybody game is that it should include all the magic, weapons, fighting, quests and survival aspects.

If you live in the places where everybody hangs out then survival skills are not important but if you want to be a pioneer and explore the wild frontiers then it becomes a major issue. If you want to live away from the crowds or start a new comunity in the deep forests, hundreds of miles from the nearest city then you will need to boost those survival skills like fire-lighting, food gathering etc. You will also need to be able to fight off wild animal attacks and maybe native tribes (not necessarily Human) that you encounter.

I also see the areas around the big citys expanding as the local populations of wild animals and dungeon-type monsters being systematically exterminated from those areas. Trees wil be chopped down for wood to build new houses and shops which the players can own, live in or work in. As noted before, these trees will not re-grow or at least will take years to do so.

Before too long your fronteir town may become part of a big city and you will need to move to new fronteirs.

I see no major difficulties in bringing all this stuff into one persistent world game.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
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