Author Topic: Why aren't you using 2.42?  (Read 23317 times)

Offline EricL

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« on: April 18, 2006, 11:53:23 AM »
Is there anyone out there still on 2.37.6?  I want to know why you havn't moved and I want to address any issues which prevent you from moving to 2.4X in the next release (2.42.3).  Unforseen issues aside, 2.42.3 may be the last VB release (at least from me) as I want to move over to the C++ fork and start working with Nums on the next generation code.  So this next release needs to be great for everyone.

Tell me what you need, what you miss, etc.  I will try to make it work.  A can't really entertain new features of any significant size, but tweaks and bug fixes and making anything that worked in 2.37.6 work in 2.42.3 are all fair game.  A couple of things:

I'm pretty pleased by the stability of 2.42.2.  I have several million cycles on my various sims on this release and I've yet to hit a run-time crash.  So if you do hit a run-time crash in 2.42.2, don't just shrug it off!  Please please please let me know and send me the error.sim.  I wantto fix any remaining mainline crashing bugs in 2.42.3.

Internet Organism Sharing will be working in 2.42.3.  I have added authenticated FTP support, so now so we can share via password protected FTP sites.  I will be offering up an FTP location for this on my own site if we don't want to provide one on the main server, but it will work with any FTP site.

I also plan to take a hard run at getting leagues working in 2.43.3.  No gaurentees, but I have scheduled some time for working on it.

If there are other things besides these which prevent you from moving, let me know now please.  I plan to drop the release at the end of the month or the first week of May.

Edit:  2.36->2.37.6
« Last Edit: April 29, 2006, 04:44:24 PM by Elite »
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Offline Testlund

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2006, 12:12:58 PM »
I don't get it either. I think you could as well remove all those old buggy versions from the server to save space and prevent anyone from downloading a bad version by misstake. The only thing wich I think worked better in 2.36 was those latest issues I've mensioned, with the numbers on the bottom of the screen getting changed when clicking change in the GUI, and day/night cycles seemd a little more stable in 2.36. Eh...wasn't that 2.37? Anyway, everything else is better in the latest version. I think there is very little left to fix.
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Offline Numsgil

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2006, 12:15:13 PM »
I think it's good to provide access to older versions as a kind of history archive.  In 100 years people will want to know that there were a dozen releases of 2.4

Offline Elite

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2006, 12:26:29 PM »
OK, here's what I want to see fixed:

(1) Viruses don't seem to work at all

(2) Collision detection doesn't work at medium to high speeds

(3) .fixang, .fixlen and .tielen1-3 don't work
Sharing doesn't seem to work either

Here's an example to demstrate bug (3):
I've attached a simple SG batterybot that is supposed to grab a veggy that you put in front of it and drain it's energy using sharing. It doesn't move or fight etc. - all it does is grab veggies that come near to it's eye5, unfix them and put them behind it using fixang.

In practice, in 2.42.2, it grabs the veggie, unfixes it, but can't move it behind itself, change the length of the tie, or share with the veg.

Other than those 2.4 seems to be a very stable release (much more stable than 2.37 where mutations are concerned) with some great new features. Fix the above and I will transfer across permenantly

Offline Testlund

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2006, 12:41:26 PM »
Strange that sharing doesn't work for you. I got a successfull population with shvarz herbivore. They sucked the veggies dry and reach a huge population.
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Offline Numsgil

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2006, 01:30:33 PM »
Collision response might be a little hard to fix without transfering 2.5's physics into 2.4.  Possible, but might be alot of work.

Code: [Select]
for(int x = 0; x <= MaxRobs; x++)
    {
        if(rob[x] != NULL && rob[x]->AbsNum < this->AbsNum)
        {
            Vector4 normal = rob[x]->pos - this->pos;
            float mindist = this->radius + rob[x]->radius;
            mindist *= mindist;
                        
            float currdist = LengthSquared3(normal);
            
            if(currdist < mindist)
            {
                //UPDATE CHANGES IN VELOCITY
                const float e  = SimOpts.ElasticCoefficient = 0.5f;
                const float M1 = this->mass;
                const float M2 = rob[x]->mass;
                
                normal /= sqrtf(currdist); //normalize normal vector

                Vector4 V1 = (this->vel * normal) * normal;
                Vector4 V2 = (rob[x]->vel * normal) * normal;

                Vector4 V1f = ((e + 1.0f) * M2 * V2 + V1 * (M1 - e * M2))/
                            (M1 + M2);
                
                Vector4 V2f = ((e + 1.0f) * M1 * V1 + V2 * (M2 - e * M1))/
                            (M1 + M2);
                
                this->vel = V1f + (this->vel - V1);
                rob[x]->vel = V2f + (rob[x]->vel - V2);
            }
        }
    }

There's the function that handles the velocity changes of collisions.  You might be able to put it directly into the VB source (you'll need to change syntax obviosuly, and handle vector math iwht functions instead of operators).

Offline Elite

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 03:06:04 PM »
If it's going to be a lot of work, then I'll settle for (1) and (3)  

Offline shvarz

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2006, 03:43:35 PM »
OK, I said this before and I'll repeat it now.  I have been against 2.4 VB version from the very beginning (Nums knows this, but he does not care).  It is very different from 2.37.6 version and does not represent an upgrade, but rather a totally different program.  It does not comply with backword-compatibility required for a version to be called an update.  Bots from one version don't work well in the other.  So by having a 2.4 version on the server we are confusing people into beleiving that 2.4 is a valid update, while in fact it is not.  Most of discussions on this board (especially the old ones) are related to 2.37 version and don't necessarily apply to 2.4.  We've seen people come and get confused by this.  

In my view 2.37 is a more or less finished product and should be presented as such, while the new stuff should be explicitly called new stuff and be distinguished from anything that was done before.

I am using 2.37.6 and I will be using it until the new C version of DB comes out (maybe even after that).  And I think everyone should do that.  So I would say: Why don't we delete the 2.4 version from the server?
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Offline PurpleYouko

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 04:15:39 PM »
I am still using 2.37.6 as it is now the most stable version available. We all went to a whole lot of trouble getting it that way.
I tend to agree with Shvarz that 2.4 isn't so much an upgrade as a whole new program without much in the way of backward compatability.

The leagues are still officially run in 2.37.6 ( when they get run at all) although if anyone wants to start up a new league for 2.4 then they should feel free to do so.

Generally I don't really like 2.4 very much. It's difficult to pinpoint all the things I don't like specifically but I just get a general feeling of it not being quite complete in the way that 2.37.6 is. Loads of stuff isn't working properly still and I don't really like the little diddy bots very much.

I also intend to stay with 2.37.6 and maybe even continue to build on it in parallel to the C++ version. (I am not now and probably never will be a C++ programmer. It's like an alien language to me)

I think of 2.4 as an unfinished and mostly abandoned project that quite frankly isn't worth spending time on.

If you all want to carry on and use it then that's up to you but I won't be doing so unless it gets a whole lot better.
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Offline Numsgil

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2006, 04:20:20 PM »
It's not that I don't care, I do care.  I just disagree.

A couple of minor things cause older bots to behave oddly, but that's hardly the first time it's happened in updates.  When PY changed the eyes from being 45 degree scanning range to 90, most bots broke.

But 2.4 is still essentially in the same spirit as 2.3.

Compare that to what I'd like 2.5 to be when it's really done (and is given the 3.0 monicer).  Most sysvars will be upgraded or discarded.  Ties will work entirely different.  -6 shots will be replaced with phagocytosis.  Metabolism will be working at least a little bit.  In every concievable way everything will have been taken one at a time and examined and changed.  That's far more fitting for a 3.0 title than 2.4, where really the only major changes are DNA flow (being made less strict) and Phsyics.

Offline PurpleYouko

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2006, 04:30:45 PM »
The new C++ version 3.0 is definitely something that I am looking forward to seeing in a big way.

I just feel that 2.4 never really had the bugs ironed out before the C++ project was started.

Admittedly I haven't tried using the latest 2.4 versions that are being worked on right now. Then again I probably only get to run a DB sim about once a month lately. It is probably much better now than it was with all the recent work that has been done.

My issues are that most of the bots I work on these days use very complex behaviours such as my ant bots and various MBs. Those are the ones that don't work so well in 2.4 so rather than redesign them all from the ground up for what is effectively only a temporary stopgap between 2.37.6 and 3.0, I will continue to use the version that works the best with them until 3.0 comes along.
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Offline Testlund

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2006, 04:55:09 PM »
 2.42.2  

  All versions before that.  
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Offline Numsgil

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2006, 05:11:05 PM »
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 05:11:25 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Welwordion

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2006, 05:55:03 PM »
I agree that 2.42 is quite buggy and the whole waste and body issue makes it harder fo bots to evolve from scratch, however the new commands for calculation like angle, distance, mod, and abs are something I really do not want  to forego.

Note: does racial memory work in any of the versions?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 06:35:17 PM by Welwordion »

Offline Numsgil

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Why aren't you using 2.42?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2006, 06:43:02 PM »
I could never get racial memory to work or figure out where in the code it lurks, to be perfectly honest.