Author Topic: Self-Modifying DNA  (Read 6269 times)

Offline Elite

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Self-Modifying DNA
« on: March 25, 2006, 05:40:22 AM »
I'm sure you all have lots to say.

So, should bots be able to modify their own DNA?
Using Nums' codule idea, should bots be able to write codules?

A bot that modifies its own DNA would be rather adaptable. It would be like an extreme Endy epigenetic bot. Cospec recognition might become a problem though ...

I think it's a cool idea  ^_^

Offline Numsgil

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Self-Modifying DNA
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2006, 07:24:46 AM »
Part of the problem is defining what tools you'd need.  I briefly looked into that sort of thing in this thread but I'm not very satisfied.

Another thing is exactly what bots would use this ability to do.  I think if we can present a clear idea of what we want to do, the tools will become more self evident.

Offline Old Henk

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Self-Modifying DNA
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2006, 01:27:10 PM »
A bot can write new DNA to cope with his surroundings in two different ways:

It should:
  • 1. Have a huge library. (not practical, gets to big)
  • 2. Have intelligence capable of assesing a situation and act accordingly (this'd be true Alife. but is it possible?)
What exactly would be the point of this DIY-DB'ing I wonder?

just my two euro-cents (which are worth more than $0.02 ;) )

Henk

Offline EricL

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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2006, 02:21:01 PM »
One goal might be to provide a mechanism for adaptability during the lifetime of particular organism.  Our immune system for example adapts over the course of our lifetime as it encounters new and different pathogens but it does this not through direct self DNA modification of existing cells but rather through the "directed" creation and selection for new cells which code for the new pathogens.  In humans, selection has favored the devlopment of immune systems which have the ability to create massive genetic varability in certain cells in certain ways at certain times.

This may be off-topic, but if one goal of DB is to over time put in place physics which can favor increased organism complexity, multibot, multi-cellular organisms in particular, then I think that what we may want isn't direct DNA self-manipulation within a single bot but rather better mechanisms to direct mutation within specific areas of the genome at reproduction time.

Imagine a complex mutlibot where different cells have specialized.  The outermost "hide" bots convert most of their energy to poison, one end specializes in getting rid of waste, the other has a cluster of tie feeders which pass energy to the rest, two bots on long ties serve as eye stalks passing back information to a cluster of central nervous system cells which do the calulations for binocular vision and tells the locomotion bots what to do...  but I digress.  :)

Say some of the hide bots are getting eaten.  Something has evolved resistance to the specific poison we use.  So, the bot reproduces new cells to replace the old ones which now poison a different memory location in the attacker.  Problem solved.  Bots have died and been replaced but the organism as a whole lives on.

We could do this today, explicitly code the hide-bot DNA codule to be able to use a variety of different posions and explicitly pass to the offspring which one to use, a sort of intelligent design in this one area, but we have no good way to tell it to do other things - make more posion than it was before, start growing a shell or making slime, use two layes of posionous cells instead of one, etc.  I'm not talking about directed DNA manipulation but rather directed mutation in narrow, specific ways.  We want the ability for a parent, when reproducing, to say "mutate here.  try something different here, in this part of the genome, leave the rest alone".  We don't have that today.

Of course this necessitates a mutation locality mechanism, so that the mutation rates of different parts of the genome can be selected for and potentially directed by parents.  If the mutation rate was part of the genome and parents could specifiy it at reporduction time, that would be a type of directed DNA modification.  

I think I would rather see work in this area, on mutation locality, than on a generic DNA self modification as a means to provide richer mechanisms for single (albeit multi-cellular) organisms to adapt during their lifetime.

Man, I cannot seem to type a short post these days...

-E
Many beers....

Offline Endy

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Self-Modifying DNA
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2006, 11:28:33 PM »
Quote
A bot that modifies its own DNA would be rather adaptable. It would be like an extreme Endy epigenetic bot. Cospec recognition might become a problem though ...

If you could somehow direct mutations to specific genes it might work okay. Maybe have some sort of:

10 .mutatethisgene store

making the gene it's in have a 10% increase in mutation rates.

Something like that anyways, would allow the specificity needed to allow directed mutations.

With my epigen's the best results were indeed obtained by "mutating" values within a relativly narrow range. The biggest barriers were the transmission delay in moving the epigen values and the massive initial number of deaths that occured due to bad phenotypes.

After things stabilize it's generally okay and the bots have much better luck at adapting to diverse enviroments. Eventually I want to have a sort of micro phenotype mutator and phenotype exchange system in the dna that'll occasionally randomly inc/dec their values. That would likely be the pinnacle as far as epigenetics go, I just need to figure out how to manage it. :D

Offline shvarz

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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2006, 01:37:55 AM »
In real organisms modification of DNA (as far as actual change in DNA sequence) only occurs to remove the complexity, never to create something new.  Immune system removes large chunks of DNA to generate diversity in it's recognition pattern.  It does not create this diversity, each cell simply picks out a particular variant from existing variety.  Increased mutability is also an option, but it won't be able to create new stuff intelligently.  As it was mentioned above, purposful creation of new useful DNA would imply intelligence.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid things in big numbers" - Serious Sam

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2006, 02:01:42 PM »
And some incredibly intelligent tools I think.  I'm not sure how to intelligently give the bots tools for their DNA modification that are anything more than dirty hacks.

Offline Endy

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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2006, 04:40:24 PM »
We just need a way for a bot to mutate a child in a limited fashion, then select for a trait or traits it would like to see. There's no real intelligence in our immune systems, they only apply an evolutionary pressure for the cells to develope novel recognition patterns.

The real trick will be deciding what to mutate and then select for. Presumably evolution will also be able to use this to create hotspot locations in spots that need greater than normal mutation rates to help overall species survival.

Offline Endy

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Self-Modifying DNA
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2006, 02:51:05 AM »
Let me see if I can explain this better.

One unit is the selector and the other is the selectee.

Only the selectee can mutate, the selector needs to stay constant.

As long as this is accomplished any system can be directed to evolve along relativly certain lines.

While your own dna can't make new useful dna purposfully, it can set-up the initial probability that something useful will be created.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 02:51:55 AM by Endy »

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2006, 06:45:57 AM »
Maybe we add some meta tags to the DNA.  Things that aren't directly "in" the DNA stream, but sit "on top" of it that helps direct mutations.

Offline Welwordion

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Self-Modifying DNA
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2006, 07:53:45 AM »
Certain bacteria start to exchange genes ones a critical condition occurs in order to develop an appropraite adaption to the situation.
Comparable bots could have different tags aplied to different genes and once a certain situation arises the bot could raise the mutation value of a certain type of tag.
So if you have problems finding your food you could raise the value on tags for your sensory system and if you use to much energy in hunting compared to the energy you gain you could try to change the  value of tags for your feeding system.
So basically their would be tag mutations deciding if a gene would belong to a certain tag number and tag activation genes that control the conditions under which those tags are activated.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 04:32:37 PM by Welwordion »

Offline Numsgil

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Self-Modifying DNA
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2006, 11:37:56 AM »
Oo, that gives me a good idea.

Let's apply mutation multipliers to codules (that are discussed elsewhere in the suggestions forum).  That solves so many potential problems I'm going to give myself a pat on the back.