Author Topic: Metabolism  (Read 8913 times)

Offline Zelos

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« on: February 25, 2005, 12:21:51 PM »
hi, we have been talking about metabolism in different ways. for now I know we have come whit is:
H2S + O2 + CO2 -> nrg + S + H20 (unbalanced)
S + H20 + O2 -> SO4 + nrg (unbalanced)
6(H2O) + 6(CO2) + nrg (light) -> C6H12O6 (glucose) + 6(O2) (balanced)
C6H12O6 + 6(O2) -> nrg + 6(H2O) + 6(CO2)

all this reaction dont happen by them self, most of them need nrg to start react. and some even require more nrg than they give, so the cells use enzymes to lower the start nrg. wouldnt our bots need it to if they use chemical reactions as nrg source? (I think so)
and wouldnt be possible for a bot to use a acid and a base to get nrg? I know from school when we mixed to and we got heat nrg from it. what do you think?
we can also use this threat for other possible chemical nrg sources for our bots.
 :D zelos :D
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 12:22:57 PM by zelos »
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2005, 12:35:37 PM »
Add this one to the list:

FeS+H2S ->FeS2+H2+free energy

There are also some nitrogen versions:
NH3 + O2 -> No2 + nrg
NO2 + O2 -> 2NO3 + nrg

(For this one, the NO3 is used to make proteins).

Proteins -> CO2 + NH3

I don't know about the acid/base thing.  If there are life forms that have evolved a way to do this they aren't prevelant.  Though there is something called the citric acid (Krebs) cycle.  Not sure if that's related or not.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 12:36:53 PM by Numsgil »

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2005, 12:43:53 PM »
NH3 + HNO3 -> NH4(+) + NO3(-) + nrg
if I remember this is right, but im not sure, am I?
btw, when we have chemicals in the simulations, how is it planned to make the right reactions? write the chemical reaction in the DNA or something?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2005, 12:46:26 PM by zelos »
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2005, 12:51:59 PM »
What I was thinking was something like this:

X is in your stomach.  X has a predefined relationship of X + (O2 and/or CO2) -> Y + nrg + (gases).

We search the enzymes in the bots stomach for one that will act on X.  If there is one, it  performs the reaction with an efficiency based on its properties.  These properties can mutate over time, allowing natural selection to go to work.

So we have to define the reactions, but the enzymes that do them are more open ended and can naturally evolve over time.

Offline SyndLig

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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2005, 01:04:58 AM »
The only thing I'm worried with there is "what happens to older bots"?

If we have to define all the enzymes in the DNA, then everything pre-enzyme will be rendered obsolete until changed.

Unless there's some basic enzymes given at the beginning if no enzyme genes are found.

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2005, 03:03:59 AM »
Hopfeully we can write default enzymes to give to all the bots if they don't have theirs.

No kids are staying home on this field trip!  Everyone on the bus!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 04:03:37 AM by Numsgil »

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2005, 03:47:47 AM »
hurray, finaly some who let every1 on baord :bigginangel:  ;)  ;)  but those start enzymes cant be to good, they should only berly keep them alive. so they are forced to evolve new ones :devil:
 :evil: zelos :evil:
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline SyndLig

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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2005, 03:49:49 AM »
Tell me... how would a bot programmed without any inkling of enzymes evolve to grow such things?  Even DB has its mutational limitations.

 :blueblob:

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2005, 03:51:59 AM »
do you think life had enzymes from the begining? it didnt, it came over time.
 :evil: Zelos :evil:
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 03:52:26 AM by zelos »
When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2005, 04:06:49 AM »
The enzymes are built from an array of bits, basically a number.  Mutations would change the bit patterns.  This is very close to how real enzymes are built.

The enzyme's array of bits (a number to those of you who don't speak computer-ese, probably 32 bit (long)) is fed into a random number generator, so 89051 and 89050 could be entirely different enzymes.

Yeah, I was thinking that we could share enzymes we've mutated with each other.  It'd be as easy as sharing a number.

Some enzymes might work on more than one food group, too.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 04:07:47 AM by Numsgil »

Offline Old Henk

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2005, 12:30:45 PM »
Is this going to make bot-design more dificult ie do we botmakers need to know the exact enzyme numbers or anything? How will this work?

Offline PurpleYouko

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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2005, 12:47:02 PM »
Quote
The only thing I'm worried with there is "what happens to older bots"?

If we have to define all the enzymes in the DNA, then everything pre-enzyme will be rendered obsolete until changed.

Unless there's some basic enzymes given at the beginning if no enzyme genes are found.
As I mentioned in another thread (can't remember where or I would link it) , any robots that do not have specifically designed enzyme systems can be arbitrarily catagorized as Carnivores and assigned a set of enzymes to suit.
In other word, all their enzymes will be geared toward eating other robots as a default (animal).
If you click the autotroph button in the setup window then this robot will be automatically optimized for using sunlight and waste (plant)

This way any existing robot can still play nice in the new system and can mutate different combinations of enzymes in successive generation.

If you save one of these robots by right click/save option then it will be saved with the enzyme settings attached to the DNA file. That will be fairly easy to do.

That's to say

"OHANA. Nobody gets left behind"
Stitch.

 :D  PY  :D
There are 10 kinds of people in the world
Those who understand binary.
and those who don't

:D PY :D

Offline Botsareus

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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2005, 02:20:19 PM »
nice thinking PY  :Robot1:

Offline Zelos

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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2005, 03:06:52 PM »
wasnt that idea kinda obvius? (I think so) when its about to know the right enzymes, a clever system could make it possible to figure out what enzyme do what. if the programares dont want us makers to know what enzyme do waht we have to wait unitel we see them evolve. then we can put them on this forum so other can see it right?
 :evil: zelos :evil:

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When I have the eclipse cannon under my control there is nothing that can stop me from ruling the world. And I wont stop there. I will never stop conquering worlds through the universe. All the worlds in the universe will belong to me. All the species in on them will be my slaves. THE ENIRE UNIVERSE WILL BELONG TO ME AND EVERYTHING IN IT :evil: AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE OF you CAN DO TO STOP ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Offline Numsgil

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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2005, 10:53:11 PM »
PY, I can't believe you watch everything I watch, and play everything I play!  You're like a 20 year older version of myself :blink:

Backward compatible is the key.  No matter what we add old bots should be able to compete, and on only slightly slanted playing field.

Programmers will have no idea what number applies to what enzyme until they try it out.  With even 32 bits per enzyme that means there's Billion different enzymes to experiment with.

Which means the best way to find better enzymes is to run some mutation sims.

Quick question, if we change a single bit in the enzyme pattern, should it make it into a completely new enzyme or  basically the same one?  The latter means alot more work, so answer carefully.   :ph43r: